Fourth seat strategy

[Gerben42]

Do you have any special strategy in 4th seat against weak pairs? Last weekend I held in 4th seat (all red) something like:

 

♠Kx

♥Axxx

♦Txx

♣Axxx

 

Your choices are Pass, 1♣ then pass any response, and 1NT 12 - 14.

 

I would have passed quickly if not for the fact that it was a relatively strong MP tournament and our opponents were one of the weakest pairs in the field. How far do you go breaking the "rule of 15"?

[rogerclee]

I open aggressively in 4th seat vs bad players. Still, without any spots (♦T doesn't count for much), balanced shape, and being two shy in Pearson, I think this is a clear pass.

 

If you forced me to open, I would open 1N.

[brianshark]

There is another thread somewhere on the shortcomings of the rule of 15.

 

Anyway, I open this 1NT because our partnership rates to have the balance of points, particularly given the lack of a light 3rd seat opening and my 11 count.

[Ant590]

Wouldn't a weak pair be less likely to open light in 3rd seat?

[gwnn]

all 4th seat problems depend on what pd opens in 2nd

[helene_t]

Weak opps or not, pass will give us a good result if the field defends 2♠ making, or some such.

[the hog]

Clear cut pass regardless of opps strength. I think I have already won on this board.

[han]

The weak opponents is indeed a good reason to get involved in this board. But as Csaba mentioned, there are other reasons to act, most importantly how sound partner opens in 2nd seat. If sound then I'd say open with this against the weakest pair in the room.

[Guest Jlall]

Even if you can only open 1N han? I don't think it is reasonable to open 1C on this hand playing a weak NT system, partner will get too screwed up. I would often open 1C in 4th but if I played wk NTs I'd feel forced to pass. Even in my wk NT partnerships I do not play them in 4th seat.

[TimG]

I would have passed quickly if not for the fact that it was a relatively strong MP tournament and our opponents were one of the weakest pairs in the field. How far do you go breaking the "rule of 15"?

If you're playing against a weak pair, isn't it likely they've already done something wrong? If they haven't, you're in the same position you would be against the strong pairs and ought to do whatever you would do against a strong pair.

 

If I open this hand, I find that LHO has decided not to open 2S because he also held four small hearts. He has no problem coming into the auction after I open and ends up making a spade partial.

[helene_t]

Playing weak 1NT, I sometimes open the most convenient suit in 3rd/4th with a 12- balanced hand. I tend to have a decent suit and a comfortable pass on anything p may bid (no doubleton above my suit). I know I can get in troubles responding to a negative double.

 

Have only been playing weak NT for a couple of months, though. So I might change my mind when I grow older.

 

Btw it's beyond me why anyone would play weak 1NT in 3rd/4th, at least if vulnerable and/or at IMPs. (12+)13-15 thought I can understand, but if p opens most balanced 12-counts in 2nd, my 4th-seat 1NT should show at least a good 13.

[inquiry]

BID

[han]

Even if you can only open 1N han? I don't think it is reasonable to open 1C on this hand playing a weak NT system, partner will get too screwed up. I would often open 1C in 4th but if I played wk NTs I'd feel forced to pass. Even in my wk NT partnerships I do not play them in 4th seat.

I missed the weak notrump.

[bill1157]

My feeling is that the weak pairs are weak largely because they do not open decent 12 counts, so dont be suprised if partner has only 8 pts on this. I would open against a good pair quicker than i would against a bad pair

[brianshark]

Weak players open 12 counts. Less weak but not very good players are, if anything, more aggresive and will open poor but shapely 11 counts that stronger players may pass.

 

Anyway, that's all beside the point... you beat weak players by not trying to second guess if they have made mistakes, it's by playing your solid game and not making any mistakes of your own. In my opinion, you rate to have the balance of points regardless of the type of opponents. 1N rates to make... and it's possible but unlikely opponents have a suit partial AND can find it after a 1N opening. Therefore I believe bidding is correct.

[finally17]

Weak players open 12 counts. Less weak but not very good players are, if anything, more aggresive and will open poor but shapely 11 counts that stronger players may pass.

Plenty of weak players don't open nice 12 counts. If I had to guess, I'd say it's more a function of age and ability than strictly ability. Younger weak players tend to overbid and older weak players tend to underbid.

 

Anyway, I'm passing. Opps have somewhere between 18 and 24 HCP and they have the majority of the spades most of the time (sometimes a strong majority). It's their hand and bidding is just opening the door for them to play and make 2+S. Regardless of how weak they are as players, I see nothing in my hand to indicate good chances of beating it. Partner's passed hand would need to provide 3.5 tricks.

[Cascade]

Even if you can only open 1N han? I don't think it is reasonable to open 1C on this hand playing a weak NT system, partner will get too screwed up. I would often open 1C in 4th but if I played wk NTs I'd feel forced to pass. Even in my wk NT partnerships I do not play them in 4th seat.

Me neither but it is interesting that there are a number of pairs that only play weak NT in 4th seat which I don't understand.

[PassedOut]

This is an interesting discussion, and I'm intrigued that so many good players would pass this hand in fourth chair under the given conditions. Honestly, I would open 1NT for sure.

 

First, this is not just an 11-point hand. I have half the aces and my share of the kings.

 

Second, partner passed in second chair, and so could easily have the other 11-point hand.

 

Third, this is matchpoints, and I think we rate to go plus, especially against a weak pair.

 

Fourth, I can open 1NT, which makes it tougher for the opponents to get into spades, if they actually belong there.

 

To me, passing here gives away a lot of the advantage you have against a weaker pair. I would like to get to a normal partial (played by either side) and bet that we will get an extra trick on either offense or defense. Also, because this is matchpoints, partner will not try for game with a balanced 11-count.

 

True, bidding could turn what had started as a good board for us (had I passed) into a contest again, but that is a total crapshoot. At other tables the bidding will have started differently, and those are the pairs we will be compared against. I'm just not going to give up on a plus score.

 

If the bidding comes back to me in 2♠, I will double for takeout, half hoping that partner can pass.

[Codo]

It real depends how bad a bad pair is.

 

If you can read that one of them had a difficult pass (F.E. the 6/4 major hand)

then pass is easy.

 

If opps are real newbies, bid 1 NT.

 

If they can count to 13, pass.

[benlessard]

My experience tell me that unless they are complete beginners (you can hear them counting HCP) the weaker the pair the weaker the crap they open in 3rd seat. Once they learn to open light in 3rd seat there is just no way to stop them !

 

The question should be do i want to defend 2S X because if the opps compete partner going to think MP and be quick with those X. I guess i would open 1Nt but im not convinced

[brianshark]

Well we have 5 controls so if pard wants to defend 2♠x, I'm not complaining.

 

Weak players are weak because they lack bidding judgement. They are taught to open with 12 points and they follow this blindly. They lack the judgement to open hands less than 12 points might be good enough to open, and they lack the judgement to pass 12 counts that might not be good enough to open.

 

I don't understand people who are claiming that it's the opps hand. The average HCP for a hand is 10, so we are already above average. And the person who should have the soundest opening is 2nd seat. So if there is an 11 or 12 count around the table, it is more likely to be partner than LHO, who is in turn more likely than RHO. The odds seriously favour us having 21-22 pts. The only real risk is a ♠ partial for them, but even if they have the ♠s, they won't find it easy to find them over a 1N opening.

[PassedOut]

Well we have 5 controls so if pard wants to defend 2♠x, I'm not complaining.

I play negative doubles from both sides after a weak notrump, so a 2♠X contract means that partner chose to pass my double.

 

The one sure thing about this hand is that the opponents will not play a peaceful 2♠ at matchpoints. If they find spades, someone will be playing on the 3-level or they will be playing doubled.

[gwnn]

Well we have 5 controls so if pard wants to defend 2♠x, I'm not complaining.

I play negative doubles from both sides after a weak notrump, so a 2♠X contract means that partner chose to pass my double.

 

The one sure thing about this hand is that the opponents will not play a peaceful 2♠ at matchpoints. If they find spades, someone will be playing on the 3-level or they will be playing doubled.

2♠x may come after

 

2♣* both majors

X willing to penalize at least one

2♠

p-p-X penalty

[PassedOut]

2♠x may come after

 

2♣* both majors

X willing to penalize at least one

2♠

p-p-X penalty

True, I was oversimplifying (as usual). There might be some other possibilities also, depending upon what agreements the weak pair facing us play.

 

Still, I expect a good number of pairs our way (if not most of them) to go plus, so I'm not going to accept less than that without a fight.

[bill1157]

Weak players open 12 counts. Less weak but not very good players are, if anything, more aggresive and will open poor but shapely 11 counts that stronger players may pass.

 

Anyway, that's all beside the point... you beat weak players by not trying to second guess if they have made mistakes, it's by playing your solid game and not making any mistakes of your own. In my opinion, you rate to have the balance of points regardless of the type of opponents. 1N rates to make... and it's possible but unlikely opponents have a suit partial AND can find it after a 1N opening. Therefore I believe bidding is correct.

Poor but shapely 11 count sounds like "good 11 count" to me. Good players may be able to pass with decent 12 counts because the field they play in will lose to them anyway. I have seen some great players open very weak hands in good competition (i.e. Bermuda Bowl)

For the less experienced players opening on the decent 12 count is essential if they are to be competitive with the better players.