What to bid...?

[Poky]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=saq10hj6dqj85cakj4]133|100|Scoring: IMP

You are playing strong club (16+ unb, 17+ bal)[/hv]

 

pass - (pass) - 1♣* - (2♥)

Dbl** - (pass) - ???

 

* 16+ HCP

** Negative

 

Please, comment answers...

 

Ty, Poky

[Free]

My vote is between 2♠ and 2NT. On the one hand I just feel to bid 2NT with this not even half a stop, hoping for one with my partner. On the other hand, it wouldn't be the first time a 4-3 Spade fit gets to 10 tricks (you also have doubleton with the short trumps) while you'll lose 5 heart tricks from the beginning in 3NT. That's why I'll bid 2♠, best of awful choices.

[luis]

3♣, seems to be my best suit and I don't have 4/5 spades so let's see how this continues.

Healthy bid.

[joker_gib]

I'd bid 3♥ (not 4 cards in ♠ and no stop in ♥) and wait for clarification by partner

 

Alain

[hrothgar]

Lot of bids could be right here, however, 2S and 3C look like the best choices.

[Please note, I don't think that I am strong enough for 3H]

 

At the end of the day, I am going with 2S because its cheaper than 3C.

[helium]

2 ♠ :)

[inquiry]

I think if you are forced to bid 2♠ on this hand with two four card minors (and never having shown even one of them)...something is dreadfully wrong with your bidding system. My suggestion, as awkward as it sounds is to bid 2NT as scrambling. If you had a real hand with ♥'s you could pass or try 3NT.

 

A scrambling 2NT, to get your partner to bid a biddable suit at the three level is better than,

 

1) Guessing which minor to bid... if you bid 3♣ and your partner is shortish in ♣ with 4♦ and 4♠ you would have been much better off playing in 2♠

 

2) If you bid 2♠, even if it is right spot, your partner may raise you based upon your fit.

 

If you are going to open with an undefined suit bid like a forcing 1♣, you will need ways to scramble to the best spot.

 

Ben

[joker_gib]

Lot of bids could be right here, however, 2S and 3C look like the best choices.

[Please note, I don't think that I am strong enough for 3H]

 

At the end of the day, I am going with 2S because its cheaper than 3C.

 

 

:huh:

 

I don't think that you need extra(s) to bid 3♥ because after your partner's dbl, you are FG. The only question that remains (especially at imps) is : what game do we play ? :)

[inquiry]

:huh:

 

I don't think that you need extra(s) to bid 3♥ because after your partner's dbl, you are FG. The only question that remains (especially at imps) is : what game do we play ? :)

Maybe your understanding of a "negative" double is different from mine. I would generally not think that a negative double is game forcing.

[hrothgar]

Joke_gib wrote:

 

>I don't think that you need extra(s) to bid 3♥ because after your

>partner's dbl, you are FG. The only question that remains

>(especially at imps) is : what game do we play ?

 

Double was definded as Takeout. It was not defined as Game Forcing.

From my own perspective, using double to show a game force is unsound. I certainly don't believe it to be standard.

 

Playing MOSCITO, we define a double of a natural 2H overcall as takeout.

In response, the following bids by opener are strong

 

2NT (could be unbalanced)

Cue Bid

Jumps

 

Other bids are weak, and seek to establish strain at a safe level.

 

Inquiry wrote:

 

>If you are going to open with an undefined suit bid like a

>forcing 1♣, you will need ways to scramble to the best spot.

 

Agree completely. However, I think that a 2S call is the best call to do so.

 

First, partner needs to be aware that 2S could easily be based on a three card suit.

In particular, there are a number of 5332 hands with a weak 5 card minor where 2S is going to be the right call.

 

Second, as I already noted, 2S is two bidding steps below 3C. I prefer not to start srambling at the three level. If partner has both minors, he can correct to clubs.

 

Third, as Free has noted, this looks like a hand where the Moyisan could play very well. Given the weakness of my opening bid, it looks better to contract for a 10 trick game.

[joker_gib]

Hi Ben ! :huh:

 

A TO dbl is generally not game forcing off course but here you play a strong ♣ system (I do not play it usually!!) and I suppose that the dbl guarantees some positive with 8 HCP or a little bit more (he passed), so when you have 17 it FG so no problem to bid 3♥ :)

 

Alain

[inquiry]

Richard said that 2♠ is the best way to "scramble" to the best contract. In his reply, he noted... "First, partner needs to be aware that 2S could easily be based on a three card suit. In particular, there are a number of 5332 hands with a weak 5 card minor where 2S is going to be the right call."

 

Let me say that if my partner is 5332 I think a pass over 2♥ is the best course of action (if not playing negative free bids). I think the negative double should be at least two places to play here. If your partner bids one of them you are not prepared to play, then you bid the most inexpensive of the other two. If you hand is one suited or your hand is balanced/semi-balanced, and if you have less than GF values, maybe a pass is best.

 

"Second, as I already noted, 2S is two bidding steps below 3C. I prefer not to start srambling at the three level. If partner has both minors, he can correct to clubs. This is ok, but if your partner will double with 5332 hands, are you having him pull only with 2♠? anytime with 3♠? And if he can double with such shape, and he does pull 2♠, how can you be sure he has both minors? (Since I would double with two places to play, I would have both..but then that is me).

 

"Third, as Free has noted, this looks like a hand where the Moyisan could play very well. Given the weakness of my opening bid, it looks better to contract for a 10 trick game."

 

Well this isn't THAT weak, but if neither of you have a ♥ stopper, BUT I am not interested in trying for game until partner shows some extra values. I think this hand will be hard pressed to make 4♠ in a 4-3 fit, especially if you are forced to ruff ♥ with the ♠T. Your partner will not have ♦AK and the ♠K (too good). IF they have ♠K, you might lose lose 2♠ after the dummy force, and if they have the ♦Ace, if they can hold up ♦ you run the risk of a trump promotion for them if you play two rounds of ♠ then a ♦ or a ♦ ruff if you play ♦ before pulling trumps (they will duck first round of ♦. And you still have the third round of ♣s to deal with anyway.

 

Ben

[hrothgar]

>Let me say that if my partner is 5332 I think a pass over 2♥

>is the best course of action (if not playing negative free bids).

>I think the negative double should be at least two places to play here.

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

 

Assume that the Strong Club opener holds a 5332 with 5 weak diamonds.

 

AQT

K2

Q8732

AQ2

 

Might be a good representative hand.

 

In this case, opener is almost required to bid 2S.

Opener is not strong enough to bid a game forcing 2NT

 

A 3D bid positions the partnership very poorly if the doubler holds Spades and Clubs.

 

A 5332 with long clubs isn't quite as bad, however, it still creates some problems.

 

The important point to recognize is that there are a number of occassions where Opener is forced to respond 2S with a 3 crd suit. Accordingly, responder's advancing structure needs to allow for this as a possibility. In turn, this also allows some leeway to bid 2S on hands like the original one.

[luis]

I wonder why do you all guys want to play in a 3-3 spade fit when 3NT, a minor suit slam or game can be available.

Unless you have agreed with your pd that after 1c-(2h)-dbl opener can rebid 2s with 3 cards the bid makes no sense. Why would you bid a spade suit with 3 cards? How does responder know when you have 5 or 4 and when you have 3?

Can't responder have a balanced hand with 3-2-4-4 distribution or 4-1-4-4 or 4-1-4-5 ?

I really don't get it, you 2s bidder are getting too fancy in my opnion.

[hrothgar]

Can't responder have a balanced hand with 3-2-4-4 distribution or 4-1-4-4 or 4-1-4-5 [sIC]?

Anything is possible. Responder doesn't deny holding a 3244/4144/4045 pattern, however, its highly unlikely:

 

(a) I have 2 Hearts

(:) RHO didn't raise his partner's Heart preempt.

 

This strongly suggests that RHO is short in Hearts and partner is relatively long.

Parter is odds on to have 3 Hearts. I'd guess that he is more likely to have 4 hearts than 2.

 

I don't see any risk of playing in a 3-3 fit.

If we play in a 4-3 fit at the two level, I expect to score well.

[luis]

I don't see any risk of playing in a 3-3 fit.

Oh my god!

[hrothgar]

I don't see any risk of playing in a 3-3 fit.

Oh my god!

Please submit hands consistent with our playing in a 3-3 fit.

I'd be interested to see when/how this is going to occur.

 

I argue that you need to make one of two assumptions:

 

(a) RHO isn't making LTT abiding raises of his partner's preempts. I understand the theory of strategically under-representing trump fits, however, I haven't seen this occur much in "the wild" and haven't optimzed my bidding to compensate.

 

(b) CHO is making takeout double with 3=3=4=3 shapes or some other idiocy.

[the hog]

Interesting post. This really depends on your partnership understanding of the negative X.

I really like 2N scrambling here, IF we have that partnership understanding. If not, I bid 2S. I doubt this will be a 3-3 fit, and even then the super Moyse may play well.

Ron

[inquiry]

Interesting post. This really depends on your partnership understanding of the negative X.

I really like 2N scrambling here, IF we have that partnership understanding. If not, I bid 2S. I doubt this will be a 3-3 fit, and even then the super Moyse may play well.

Ron

Ron, I also like 2NT scrambling here. Seems Richard plays that forcing, Free plays it a stopper (but bids it here). I wonder how else is enlightened like us? :-)

[hrothgar]

Interesting post. This really depends on your partnership understanding of the negative X.

I really like 2N scrambling here, IF we have that partnership understanding. If not, I bid 2S. I doubt this will be a 3-3 fit, and even then the super Moyse may play well.

Ron

Hi Ron

 

Just wanted to make sure that we are on the same page here:

 

Here is my understanding of competitive bidding in MOSCITO

 

Following the auction

 

1C - (Z) - Double - (Pass), where 1N <= Z <= 2S

 

Game Forcing Bids by the 1C Opener:

 

Jump Shift = Strong, Natural and Forcing

Cue Bid = At least 5/5 shape

2NT = Values with no clear bid

 

Non-game forcing bids by the Strong Club opener:

 

New suits = Natural (or at least tolerance) and non-forcing

[the hog]

Well, Yes, there is a downside to bidding 2S, and that is that when you play a C system, the 1C opener could have any number of S; as Luis points out, is 2S based on 3,4, or5+.

 

Having said this, without an agreement that 2N is scrambling, what do you do?

 

I have a strong belief that 2N should hardly ever be to play; (only is a sequence where opener bids 1N with a minimum and responder raises to 2). It makes little sense to contract for EXACTLY 8 tricks, hence I like scrambling in more and more situations. It is for this reason that Richard may well be right if 2N by opener here would be forcing.

[the hog]

Interesting post. This really depends on your partnership understanding of the negative X.

I really like 2N scrambling here, IF we have that partnership understanding. If not, I bid 2S. I doubt this will be a 3-3 fit, and even then the super Moyse may play well.

Ron

Hi Ron

 

Just wanted to make sure that we are on the same page here:

 

Here is my understanding of competitive bidding in MOSCITO

 

Following the auction

 

1C - (Z) - Double - (Pass), where 1N <= Z <= 2S

 

Game Forcing Bids by the 1C Opener:

 

Jump Shift = Strong, Natural and Forcing

Cue Bid = At least 5/5 shape

2NT = Values with no clear bid

 

Non-game forcing bids by the Strong Club opener:

 

New suits = Natural (or at least tolerance) and non-forcing

I need to look up the notes as it is a while since I have played Moscito, Richard, but I think you are right. As I stated in my previous post, it makes little sense to try and stop on sixpence, (whoops, sorry read a "dime" in American speak). So it makes sense that 2N by opener should be forcing.

 

Incidentally, I always answer these questions based on what I think most people play. I doubt very much whether most would have either a "scrambling" 2N agreement. or have the agreement that 2N is forcing, however sound that may well be.

[Free]

Ofcourse, IF I have a scrambling 2NT agreement, I'll use it. But without any special agreements, I thing 2♠ should be bid here...

[mishovnbg]

 

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Hi all!

 

------

Before to comment I will make one clarification, because I don't like to make decisions based on dreg of coffee.

1♣*-(2♥)-X**-(P)

?

* Modified Precision: 16+any/17+bal

**Negative: 4-6 any but trap pass/7+ without other free positive bid

Note: If X show support in unbid suits (mainly ♠) it must be alerted as "take out", if in 2 places how Ben suggest, then as "bi" dbl (yes, such convention exist).

 

 

------

I am sorry but will repeat again: Bidding must be based on list of wining contracts priority and must be game, not score oriented. To bid reasonably after 2 level intervention you need convention(s) and sacrificing natural meaning of at least one of bids. Normally such bid at 2 level is 2NT. I am really wonder why so many experts even didn't mention about such simple convention like lebensohl? The only one was Ben, thanks to him, who mention about 2NT scrambling. Ben, 2NT scramling is good for hand in example, but bad for lot of GF hands - the reason why people play lebensohl, not scrambling. To pass with any semi positive hand is not a good idea in precision Ben, exlude trap pass, becuase possible preempt continuations and follow lack of any ideas about at least level of possible contracts.

 

My choice: 2NT lebensohl

 

About bidding after opps intervention after unclear or multi bid I prefer to play similar to meta or raptor structure. Because of successful experience I will describe raptor structure:

1♣*-(2♥)-?

 

 

---------------

X: 5+hcp, bal/sbal, optional

 

---------------

2♠: nf, 5+♠

 

---------------

2NT:, rf, 4+♠, unbalanced

 

---------------

3♣/♦: nf, inv, (5)6+♣/♦

 

---------------

3♥: gf, deny 4♠, (2)1-♥

 

---------------

3♠/4♣/♦: gf, 6+ suit

 

---------------

3NT: To play, 5+/4+-4+ minors, stopper ♥

 

---------------

4♥: slam try, short ♥, 5+-5+minors

 

---------------

4NT: slam try, 5-5+minors, deny shortness ♥

 

 

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Misho