pclayton Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 You play UDCA - everything else is standard. The opponents play 5♣ x'd. You overcalled 1♠, and pard made a simple raise. You lead the ♠A from ♠AQxxx and dummy has ♠Kx. Pard plays the J and declarer follows. What does the J signal mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Suit preference. Can give count on the next lead of the suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Suit preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 SP suit preference or "sorry partner, wrong signal" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_h Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 suit preference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Clear suit preference as it's clear that neither count nor attitude in ♠ is important here. At least it's unlikely to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Given that you cannot take another trick in spades, it is suit preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 With some I play count and with some I play suit preference. I think SP is superior but count would be more common with a random partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexlogan Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 It is impossible to answer this question without seeing the complete hand. Absent any compelling reason otherwise, his signal is ATTITUDE; consult the Bridge Encyclopedia or Eddie Kantar if you don't believe me. The notion that "if we can't take the next trick in this suit we can't be signalling attitude" is based on the flawed, absurd notion that the goal of defense is to take the next trick. The goal is to defeat the contract or maximize the number of tricks taken. Continuing a suit which in which dummy can ruff or win the next trick does not even come close to establishing that we should lead another suit -- switching will, on average, blow half a trick, while continuing in a case like this may be the correct (passive) defense. Dummy (or declarer) must have a threat to justify risking a switch. In such a case, which suit to switch to will generally be obvious -- it won't be the long, threatening suit. Playing UDCA, partner's Jack signals a strong desire for a switch to the obvious suit. Partner's lowest card would suggest continuing the suit, such as when partner has the threat suit stopped, or has no help in the off suit, or there is no obvious threat. Jlall, at least, is an expert, and I am not, but Eddie Kanter has made this point repeatedly and I cannot fathom why any good player would play anything but attitude here (barring a dummy which makes continuing the suit suicidal, as in the example hand from the Bridge Encyclopedia.) As partner is known to have at least three cards, playing the Jack might seem wasteful; but with J54 or the like, it might be crucial to make the signal clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Singleton and psychic raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 I cannot fathom why any good player would play anything but attitude here You shouldn't make untrue statements. Either that, or your fathoming abilities need work. Clear suit preference. Note this is not the same as ordering partner to switch to a particular suit next, a distinction you do not seem to be making. Sometimes the dummy makes it clear that you are merely denying an honor in a particular suit by showing suit preference for the other, and that leaves it to partner to do whatever he thinks is right which of course could be continuing the lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 That's one of the more obvious SP positions IMO. Of course that's a general statement, as I haven't seen the actual hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted February 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 I used the J as a poor excuse to shift to hearts away from AQx looking at Txxxx in dummy. I thought declarer might have a stiff spade on the auction, but I was really just testing out the principle. I think pard was just giving count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 I think pard was just giving count. I doubt that. I think partner had J10x and didn't think further than his nose was long (I was kibitzing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianshark Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 I would expect it to be suit pref. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnszsun Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 To people who play it as SP, i have a question:If your ♠s are J62 and you have no intersest in either higher or lower suit shift, does it mean you have to play 6 then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 To people who play it as SP, i have a question:If your ♠s are J62 and you have no intersest in either higher or lower suit shift, does it mean you have to play 6 then? The usual suit preference rule. If one suit is obviously not right due to dummy and you tell him to shift to that suit, that should be a clear indication not to shift. Otherwise, make a judgement call about which shift would be less harmful. Playing the six just makes partner have to guess whether that's your high or your low card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianshark Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 To people who play it as SP, i have a question:If your ♠s are J62 and you have no intersest in either higher or lower suit shift, does it mean you have to play 6 then? I wouldn't (necessarily) play the J as suit pref without holding the ten. The 6 is suit pref for the higher suit and 2 would be suit pref for the lower suit. If you genuinely have no preference, tough. Pick something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexlogan Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Given that you cannot take another trick in spades, it is suit preference. You never lead a suit in which you cannot take another trick? Declarers must love all those free gifts -- oh, wait, I don't have to ask, I get those gifts all the time. Hasn't anyone on this forum ever heard of passive defense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 That's one of the more obvious SP positions IMO. Of course that's a general statement, as I haven't seen the actual hand. Agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFA Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 In this situation, I play: Low card = Continue please (no shift desired)High even card = Shift to lowest ranking side suitHigh odd card = Shift to highest ranking side suit If I have, say, only odd cards among the big ones, the highest odd card would have it's usual meaning (shift to highest ranking suit), while a smaller odd card would indicate the lower suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Fascinating discussion. When I first saw this problem posed, I thought that this was the easiest question that had ever been posed in this Forum. And the vote and the discussion, for the most part, confirmed this. A clear suit preference situation. Lexlogan's assertion that the first signal is attitude even if the defense cannot win the next round of the suit is interesting. While I do not have a copy of the Bridge Encyclopedia or Kantar's book on defense in front of me, it is my recollection that the situation posed in both of those reference works is a singleton in dummy, not Kx after the lead of the Ace (please correct me if I am wrong on this). This is a much different situation. However, even if it is Kx in dummy, it is possible to construct a hand where the defense needs to continue, win a trick and force the dummy to ruff (or force a ruff in one hand or the other, in the case that the declaring side is 2-2 in the suit). So, attitude is not out of the question. The question really is, what card requests a continuation? I have always thought that an unnecessarily high card (the J in this case) is suit preference for the higher side suit, and the lowest card is a suit preference for the lower side suit, while an intermediate card expresses no opinion and tends to ask for a continuation (by the way, I fail to see how the presence or absence of the 10 is relevant to the meaning of the play of the J or the willingness to play it, absent some squeeze possibility against partner). Playing Obvious Shift, the situation might be different, depending on the appearance of the dummy. And, of course, if a shift to a heart on this hand is irrational (ex. - dummy has AK tight), then perhaps the play of the Jack has some other meaning (an alarm clock play, to use the lexicon of Obvious Shift). Phil says that the hearts in dummy were Txxxx. I would like to know what the rest of the dummy was before coming to a definite conclusion about the meaning of the play of the ♠J, but at least the heart holding in dummy is consistent with a desire of my partner for a heart switch. Without the entire dummy to help guide us, and absent some agreement to the contrary, the play of the Jack appears to be a suit preference signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 You should have made distinct options for "suit preference" and "reverse suit preference" to get some controversy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Given that you cannot take another trick in spades, it is suit preference. You never lead a suit in which you cannot take another trick? Declarers must love all those free gifts -- oh, wait, I don't have to ask, I get those gifts all the time. Hasn't anyone on this forum ever heard of passive defense? I don't understand why you can't seperate that the signal is suit preference from the fact that opening leader is allowed to continue the lead anyway!!! He doesn't have to turn off his brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexlogan Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Given that you cannot take another trick in spades, it is suit preference. You never lead a suit in which you cannot take another trick? Declarers must love all those free gifts -- oh, wait, I don't have to ask, I get those gifts all the time. Hasn't anyone on this forum ever heard of passive defense? I don't understand why you can't seperate that the signal is suit preference from the fact that opening leader is allowed to continue the lead anyway!!! He doesn't have to turn off his brain.In the problem posed, opening leader holds AQ of the suit led. For all third hand knows, leader does not have the Queen. When that situation occurs, it is often important for third hand to signal whether he has the Queen. This would make continuing the suit relatively safe (passive defense). Continuing the suit with the King in dummy and an original holding of Qxx or better in declarer's hand could be disastrous. So, no, opening leader does not have to react mechanically to partner's puppet string signal, but he will make better decisions given better information. Depending on the auction, dummy, and leader's hand, third hand is often fairly weak. If he holds a high honor in the suit led, he is less likely to have a useful holding in either side suit. Switching suits costs, on average, half a trick. Knowing that partner's hand is more suitable for a continuation than a switch can be crucial for the opening leader. There is no practical way to transmit this information if you assume suit preference signals here. Since the proper goal of the defense on many (perhaps most) hands is to NOT BLOW A TRICK, waiting for what declarer must yield if you don't help him out, attitude is still important even if you can't win the next trick in the suit. Therefore, Eddie Kantar and I do not think the benefits of suit preference outwieghs attitude for the case where dummy has a singleton. I haven't seen him address this case, and perhaps it is different enough. Also, perhaps most experts think suit preference or count is more useful in such cases. But I have yet to see any justification of that. All the comments are along the lines of "of course, suit preference." Here's a hand from the Suit Preference article in the Bridge Encyclopedia. Does attitude apply here only because suit preference makes no sense? (West, after leading a high diamond, must continue the suit to protect East's King of trumps.) The Encyclopedia merely says "the suit played is significant, so suit preference does not apply; East's Queen is a standard come-on." This sounds much more like attitude is the default, even with a singleton in dummy. [hv=n=sakqj10hakqj10d7c84&w=s865h9632dak1082c6&e=s943h87dqj654ck53&s=s72h54d93caqj10972]399|300|6♣ by South[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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