Bidding plan with monster

[rogerclee]

I'll make forcing heart bids and will reach 7♥ if I get a heart raise, 7NT if I don't (will bid 7♥ if partner keeps bidding diamonds and spades too).

 

In the play, say partner has a stiff heart and ♣Axx. I'll cash ♥AK very quickly, and then shift to the ♣J at lightning speed to read the tempo.

[the hog]

In the play, say partner has a stiff heart and ♣Axx. I'll cash ♥AK very quickly, and then shift to the ♣J at lightning speed to read the tempo.

I hope you are joking else this is highly unethical.

[cherdano]

In the play, say partner has a stiff heart and ♣Axx. I'll cash ♥AK very quickly, and then shift to the ♣J at lightning speed to read the tempo.

I hope you are joking else this is highly unethical.

Huh?

[the hog]

No "huh" about it. Varying the tempo in this manner is unethical; end of story.

[fifee]

You pick up the best hand you'll hold all year:

 

♠Kx ♥AKQJxx ♦AK ♣KJT

 

You open 2♣. What is your strategy over a response that shows 4 controls?

 

With 4 controls, partner has 2 aces. What we need to find is the Queen situation for 7NT. Does partner have any Queens at all? There are methods to ask about suits after a 2♣ opener and step response. Perhaps you had this in your repertoire?

 

If not, simplest might be to set ♣s as trump and ask RKC. If no Q, then bid 5!S looking for other Queens since continuing guaranteed all other keys.

[skjaeran]

No "huh" about it. Varying the tempo in this manner is unethical; end of story.

Not only unethical, it's illegal according to bridge law.

[whereagles]

he said checking LHOs tempo, not changing his own tempo

[rogerclee]

I'd be happy if someone who's very educated about the laws can explain why this is or is not an okay thing to do.

 

My response is the same as Arend's--"Huh?"

[rogerclee]

Not only unethical, it's illegal according to bridge law.

I'd actually like to see this law. I searched for a few minutes through the ACBL lawbook, but I was unable to find any law that dealt with this matter.

 

It is entirely possible that I couldn't find this law if it exists, or that this law exists in Europe but not in the ACBL.

 

The closest thing I found is:

Law 73D:

A player may not attempt to mislead an opponent by means of remark or gesture, through the haste or hesitancy of a call or play (as in hesitating before playing a singleton), or by the manner in which the call or play is made.

 

That is not the goal here. The goal is to read his tempo, not to mislead him as to my holding in clubs. In fact, I am sure that if my LHO does indeed hold the ♣Q, it will be clear to him within 3 seconds what my exact club holding is. For example, this law refers to a situation such as this:

 

I am declaring 3NT and have ♥KQJ. RHO gets in and leads a heart. It would be unethical and illegal for me to hesitate here and then play the K, possibly suggesting that my holding is Kxx or KJx. I must play a card in tempo, since I have nothing to think about. If for some reason I huddle a bit, I MUST play the J, not any other card, as this is the card which makes my holding most clear to the defenders, and even then, the opponents may be able to successfully nail me for this.

[the hog]

he said checking LHOs tempo, not changing his own tempo

Nuno, he said "I'll cash ♥AK very quickly, and then shift to the ♣J at lightning speed to read the tempo. " Suggests changing the tempo to me.

[whereagles]

well.. "very quickly" and "lightning speed" seem more or less the same to me :)

[Guest Jlall]

You can play as fast as you want rogerclee, you cannot hesitate to mislead but you are certainly entitled to make a play whenever you now what play you want to make.

[Halo]

(74) C. Violations of Procedure

The following are considered violations of procedure:

.

.

.

7. varying the normal tempo of bidding or play for the purpose of

disconcerting an opponent.

 

Conduct and etiquette are part of the Laws.

[pclayton]

This is a variation of the lead against the grand in Riverside a few weeks ago :

 

Riverside problems

 

Brian's hand was actually: ♠Kx ♥AKQJx ♦AK ♦KJTx, not the one I posted here.

 

At the time, I imagined the hand I posted and thought - what is the best way to get a club lead against 7N? A: Bid clubs along the way - even check for key cards if necessary before subsiding in 7N.

 

Yes I'm suggesting a 3♣ rebid. Pard will either raise clubs or not. If he doesn't raise, I think there's a good chance he has Ax or A and 7♥ looks very good.

 

Pard may try 3♦ / 3♠. 7♥ again looks good, since pard probably has ♦Jxxxx / Jxxxxx / ♠Axxxx or Axxxxx.

 

I can't see any significant extra additional chances for 7♥ other than a ruffing value or a side suit. If pard is balanced, it seems 7N would play the same.

 

If pard raises clubs, which seems likely, we can key card and find out about the Queen. If pard lies about the Queen and shows us extra length, we can still bid 7N.

 

Since nearly everyone that posted thought that a heart lead was automatic against 7♥ 7N, after the big hand bids hearts and signs off, it think it stands to reason that club lead is just as likely if we start with clubs.

 

Furthermore, if LHO makes an offsuit lead that isn't obvious - like a sequence for instance, there is a strong inference that he has the ♣Q.

[Guest Jlall]

(74) C. Violations of Procedure

The following are considered violations of procedure:

.

.

.

7. varying the normal tempo of bidding or play for the purpose of

disconcerting an opponent.

 

Conduct and etiquette are part of the Laws.

This means you cannot play slowly or super fast just to piss off the opponents.

[jdonn]

(74) C. Violations of Procedure

The following are considered violations of procedure:

.

.

.

7. varying the normal tempo of bidding or play for the purpose of

disconcerting an opponent.

 

Conduct and etiquette are part of the Laws.

This means you cannot play slowly or super fast just to piss off the opponents.

Exactly! ty. This is the most misinterpreted rule there is.

[Halo]

Well I'll stick with my misinterpretation and avoid trying to con the opponents in this situation. I'll keep my normal tempo.

[Guest Jlall]

Well I'll stick with my misinterpretation and avoid trying to con the opponents in this situation. I'll keep my normal tempo.

As declarer you can play any card whenever you want as long as you are not misleading your opponent (such as thinking with KQJ, or thinking with a stiff). If you want to think in a situation where you are just thinking about the position and not your play you can easily indicate that in any number of ways. If you have decided what you want to play do you really think you cannot play it because it would be "out of tempo"? Of course you can play any card whenever you want, you don't have to think when you already know what you're going to do. In fact doing so could be interpreted as misleading the opponent (since that's what thinking with a stiff is; thinking when you already know what you want to play). If the opponents need time to think they can also control the tempo (ie, not turning a card, thinking at trick 1 for as long as they want, etc).

 

If the opponents are caught off guard that is their problem. Part of bridge is thinking ahead. Everyone knows when they have a Q or K you need to be prepared for what you are going to do. You need to think about this ahead of time and be able to react in your normal tempo (ideally). If they have failed to do this/are not capable of doing this it is one of their shortcomings as a bridge player just like not being able to take a finesse would be.

 

People really need to lay off of rogerclee and stop questioning his ethics for his comment.

 

edit: Also lol @ stop trying to con the opponents. I'm sure you don't falsecard either, or try to swindle the opps, or try a pseudo squeeze, or make tactical bids. Heaven forbid you "con" your opponents by leading the jack of clubs through them!

[skjaeran]

(74) C. Violations of Procedure

The following are considered violations of procedure:

.

.

.

7. varying the normal tempo of bidding or play for the purpose of

disconcerting an opponent.

 

Conduct and etiquette are part of the Laws.

Wrong Law, try L73D1:

It is desirable, though not always required, for players to maintain steady tempo and unvarying manner. However, players should be particularly careful in positions in which variations may work to the benefit of their side.  Otherwise, inadvertently to vary the tempo or manner in which a call or play is made does not in itself constitute a violation of propriety, but inferences from such variation may appropriately be drawn only by an opponent, and at his own risk.

As a highly qualified TD I maintain that playing in the manner described earlier is illegal. If anyone is in doubt about this, check with your national authority.

[mikeh]

I'll make forcing heart bids and will reach 7♥ if I get a heart raise, 7NT if I don't (will bid 7♥ if partner keeps bidding diamonds and spades too).

 

In the play, say partner has a stiff heart and ♣Axx. I'll cash ♥AK very quickly, and then shift to the ♣J at lightning speed to read the tempo.

Leaving aside the comments about the ethics or legality of this line, in my view it is simply bad bridge B)

 

No good player would ever twitch (or cover) with the club Q. It is simply impossible that you bid 7N on a hand on which you would be taking a finesse this early AND it is important to cover. A good player will play low in tempo rather than even think about the play, just on instinct (which is internalized experience).

 

And I would hate to have to try to read WHY a less-than-expert opp twitched. Maybe it was because he was expecting another heart. Maybe it was because he was thinking about giving count. Maybe he was thinking about the colour to repaint the living room walls.

 

And all along, we are committing to a line before we have tested all of the side suits, which may actually give us a good technical edge: we find out, for example, that hearts break 4-2... combine this with inferences as to other suit lengths, and we may be able to infer which way the clubs break, and then hook through length. Not to mention that maybe an opp wiill pitch a small club (or 2) on the run of the hearts.

[jdonn]

It is desirable, though not always required, for players to maintain steady tempo and unvarying manner. However, players should be particularly careful in positions in which variations may work to the benefit of their side.  Otherwise, inadvertently to vary the tempo or manner in which a call or play is made does not in itself constitute a violation of propriety, but inferences from such variation may appropriately be drawn only by an opponent, and at his own risk.

As a highly qualified TD I maintain that playing in the manner described earlier is illegal. If anyone is in doubt about this, check with your national authority.

Come on Harold, you ignored the very next sentence, which obviously shows the sentence that you bolded is about a different topic altogether! The law you quoted is speaking about not taking advantage of UI, it has nothing to do with playing quickly to try and read your opponent.

[Cascade]

(74) C. Violations of Procedure

The following are considered violations of procedure:

.

.

.

7. varying the normal tempo of bidding or play for the purpose of

disconcerting an opponent.

 

Conduct and etiquette are part of the Laws.

This means you cannot play slowly or super fast just to piss off the opponents.

From dictionary.com

 

"dis·con·cert /ˌdɪskənˈsɜrt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[dis-kuhn-surt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–verb (used with object) 1. to disturb the self-possession of; perturb; ruffle: Her angry reply disconcerted me completely.

2. to throw into disorder or confusion; disarrange: He changed his mind and disconcerted everybody's plans. "

 

I'd suggest that you were trying to ruffle your opponents if you deliberately played unusually quickly in order to gain something from their tempo.

 

I think that is exactly what the laws don't allow you to do.

[Cascade]

(74) C. Violations of Procedure

The following are considered violations of procedure:

.

.

.

7. varying the normal tempo of bidding or play for the purpose of

disconcerting an opponent.

 

Conduct and etiquette are part of the Laws.

This means you cannot play slowly or super fast just to piss off the opponents.

Exactly! ty. This is the most misinterpreted rule there is.

I don't think "disconcert" and "piss off" are synonyms.

[Guest Jlall]

A good way to "ruffle" someone is by intentionally playing slow/fast.

 

One of googles definitions for disconcert:

 

upset: cause to lose one's composure

 

Upset and piss off are closely synonymous to me. I could have said "piss off to the point that they lose their composure" I suppose. I was not trying to word my post very carefully to withstand scrutiny :)

 

I think it is CLEAR that the intent of that stated law is that you cannot play at a certain speed to deliberately "disconcert" your opponent such as taking a minute for every play when the opponent asks you to speed up in order to spite them, etc. I am surprised jdonn of all people agrees with me :angry:

[Cascade]

It is desirable, though not always required, for players to maintain steady tempo and unvarying manner. However, players should be particularly careful in positions in which variations may work to the benefit of their side.  Otherwise, inadvertently to vary the tempo or manner in which a call or play is made does not in itself constitute a violation of propriety, but inferences from such variation may appropriately be drawn only by an opponent, and at his own risk.

As a highly qualified TD I maintain that playing in the manner described earlier is illegal. If anyone is in doubt about this, check with your national authority.

Come on Harold, you ignored the very next sentence, which obviously shows the sentence that you bolded is about a different topic altogether! The law you quoted is speaking about not taking advantage of UI, it has nothing to do with playing quickly to try and read your opponent.

The bold sentence says that you need to be careful in positions where your tempo can give your side an advantage.

 

The next sentence says that an inadvertent variation is otherwise ok.

 

My impression from Rogerclee's post was that it was not an inadvertent but a deliberate fast play trying to get an advantage from the tempo.

 

This is clearly not allowed by the quoted law.

 

In my opinion it is sharp practice.

 

It happens to be the sort of sharp practice that you will often get away with therefore as the law says "should be particularly careful" so as not to get an unfair advantage.