A disaster, what's wrong?

[cnszsun]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=skjxxhdajxxxxcaxx&s=saxhkq10xdq10xxcj10x]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♣-1♦-ps-2♣

ps-2♠-ps-3♣

ps-3♥-ps-4♦

ps-4♥-ps-ps

ps

[/hv]

[Gerben42]

3♥ was not correct, it would be patterning out. On the other hand I am not fond of South's bidding either. If partner had what he bid, 5♦ would be so solid there is no need for anything else in shaky 4-3 fits.

 

Although this tends to show 5 cards, I think S should respond 2♥ to "bid where he lives".

[Cascade]

They had no idea what they were doing.

 

This pair needs to go and discuss their methods and style.

 

1♦ is fine

 

2♣ is fine

 

2♠ is fine

 

3♣ is ok presumably asking for a stopper

 

3♥ is crazy. How is partner supposed to know that you are suddenly showing a shortage when your previous bids have been showing values. I would have thought that standard without discussion was that new suits below 3NT when you have a minor fit are primarily high-card feature showing aimed at getting to 3NT. This auction is a little different in that partner has asked for a stopper and you have just declined. However if you are going to bid this with a void then you had better have discussed this in advance.

 

4♦ is ok. I would jump to 5♦ with short clubs and play that this could be passed (perhaps not after the 3♥ bid).

 

4♥ this should be a cue-bid now but we have painted a confusing picture earlier in the auction

 

Pass this is insane. We must suspect that partner is cue-bidding. There is also a huge clue that partner doesn't have four hearts in that he bid 2♠ not 2♥ over 2♣.

[inquiry]

North was a little careless, south lost his mind.

 

Could north be 4-3-5-1 and choose 1♦ over a takeout double and 3♥ was patterning out? The answer is no. North DOES not have a three suiter with short clubs -- even on this auction. Pattern out has to be logically out.

 

South made a "forcing cue-bid" after the overcall. The second cue-bid might have been out of concern that the first one might be taken as just some sort of limit raise or constructive raise. But hey, that is exactly what it was.... 12 points, four card support.

 

It is up to the partnership to determine what shows this type of raise after the diamond overcall. Is it:

• jump raise (1♣)-1♦-(P)-3♦
  
• a cue-bid then raise (1♣)-2♣-(P)-something-(P)-3♦
  
• a jump cue bid (1♣)-1♦-(P)-3♣
  

The cue-bid, then re-cue bid seems to have blown the auction up. North took the second cue-bid as game forcing ♦ raise (I would not have taken it that way). And he then cue-bid his heart control twice. Perhaps a jump to 4♥ if he is certain of the meaning of the second cue-bid. South seems to think his second cue-bid was looking for 3NT with a partial club stopper (Western cue-bid).... his view perhaps motivated by the spade bid and his strong heart stoppers. Not a bad view and would have worked pretty well on this hand if north had bid 3NT on his Jack third of clubs.

 

Somewhere in here, South needs to correct to 5♦ instead of playing in a 4-0 heart fit, and someone, probably south, should have bid notrump along the way. North clearly thought diamonds were the agreed upon suit, but south was out of the picture on that one.

[skjaeran]

I really don't understand 3♥ from north - 3♦ seems clear to me. 3♥ isn't patterning out IMO, it shows some values there.

 

I'd have bid 1♥ with the south hand over 1♦, not 2♣. This shows 4+♥ and is forcing in my methods. Over 1♠ I'd probably rebid 2♣, but 3♦ is also quite possible.

[pclayton]

While Ben gives a good analysis why 3♥ isn't hearts, it's hardly a valid reason why 3♥ and then 4♥ is a good plan. If my pard bid that way, I don't know what I'd do - maybe I'd figure it out and maybe I wouldn't.

 

North seems to be a member of the Rexford Torture Bid Society :lol:

 

South seemed to do OK, but passing 4♥ is a real FYP call.

[mikeh]

1st 3 calls are fine.

 

S made the first error.. a serious one as well: 3♣ was silly. He has shown a good hand via 2♣. Partner has shown an extra-values overcall via 2♠, so 3♦ now is forcing. And it actually serves the surprisingly useful purpose of telling partner about the excellent fit. I can, however, understand 3♣ if S wasn't sure that north would take 3♦ as forcing one round.

 

3♥ over 3♣ was weird. The critical point is that NO FIT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED!. One does NOT embark upon cuebids, let alone shortness cue-bids, until and unless a fit has been established. There is simply no reason to take 3♣ as agreeing either diamonds or spades.

 

I appreciate Ben's explanation of why South shouldn't take the heart bids as natural, but just how is S to interprete them? My take is that North is showing a good 4=2=5=2 with a heart card and (this is a bit of a stretch) a partial stopper.. Jx or Qx in clubs.. how else to get to 3N by south when south holds Jxx or Qxx and is worried about the suit? Now, this only explains 3♥. As for 4♥, I can understand, without approving, the desire to pass as South. He knows that 4♥ is insane, but he can't know the flavour of the insanity and passing will 'teach North a lesson'.

 

Leaving out the 1♣ bid, which is a 'given', I see N-S bidding as follows:

 

1♦  2♣

2♠  3♦

4♣  4♦

4♥  4♠

5♦  ?

 

This isn't cast in stone, and there are reasonable alternatives at many stages

 

S can tell than N lacks the heart A, since North bypassed the suit for his first cue bid, so I think that S has a reasonable pass of 5♦... but 6 will probably make.

[han]

S made the first error.. a serious one as well: 3♣ was silly.

Agree, missed this in the first couple of analysi.

[Guest Jlall]

I would not play 3D over 2S as forcing. To me this is analagous to south showed a good raise, north made a natural bid showing extras trying for game/a spade fit, south denied a well fitting hand and can be passed in 3D.

 

I would definitely bid 2S over this 2C bid with AQxx Kx KJxxx xx and if my partner then bid 3D I would pass. I thought this was very standard. This would make souths 3C bid standard as well.

[Cascade]

I would not play 3D over 2S as forcing. To me this is analagous to south showed a good raise, north made a natural bid showing extras trying for game/a spade fit, south denied a well fitting hand and can be passed in 3D.

 

I would definitely bid 2S over this 2C bid with AQxx Kx KJxxx xx and if my partner then bid 3D I would pass. I thought this was very standard. This would make souths 3C bid standard as well.

We certainly have the agreement that if we have invited and shown a fit in a minor then a new suit at the two-level is semi-natural and constructive but NOT forcing to game. That is we can still sign-off in 3minor.

[han]

OK, but if south has a hand good enough to force to game then they should bid 3H, not 3C imo.

[Guest Jlall]

OK, but if south has a hand good enough to force to game then they should bid 3H, not 3C imo.

that would show 5 hearts imo since you can have a 5-3 fit still imo.