rogerclee Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 This should be clear, I think, but just checking. What is 4C in this auction? 1NT* - (2D) - 3D** - (P)3S - (P) - 4C(?) * 1NT = 15-17** 3D = Stayman, GF, no ♦ stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Gameforcingforcing with 5+ clubs and 4 hearts, not necessarily showing a really big hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Gerber obv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 It's an indication that you should be playing Rubensohl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Let me be devil's advocate.This can't be natural, with 5+clubs and 4 hearts responder would start with a forcing 3♣ bid, over which it is still very easy find a 4-4 major fit. So this is a cue for spades, his only way to make a slam try without a diamond control, while it is very easy to force to game with 4 hearts and longer clubs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Let me be devil's advocate.This can't be natural, with 5+clubs and 4 hearts responder would start with a forcing 3♣ bid, over which it is still very easy find a 4-4 major fit. So this is a cue for spades, his only way to make a slam try without a diamond control, while it is very easy to force to game with 4 hearts and longer clubs... No, it won't be easy to find a 4-4 heart fit since partner will bid 3N with diamonds well stopped, and if he bids 3M he will be showing 5 of them not 4 of them, or a hand that is trying to cooperate in clubs, since he is not looking for a 4-4 fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Let me be devil's advocate.This can't be natural, with 5+clubs and 4 hearts responder would start with a forcing 3♣ bid, over which it is still very easy find a 4-4 major fit. So this is a cue for spades, his only way to make a slam try without a diamond control, while it is very easy to force to game with 4 hearts and longer clubs... No, it won't be easy to find a 4-4 heart fit since partner will bid 3N with diamonds well stopped, and if he bids 3M he will be showing 5 of them not 4 of them, or a hand that is trying to cooperate in clubs, since he is not looking for a 4-4 fit. He can easily bid 3♦ when he doesn't have diamonds well stopped to look for 4-4 fits. Anyway, of course the point is whether 3♣ denies a 4-card major. I am sure it does undiscussed, but I am not sure it is the optimal treatment here (esp. with the cheap cue bid available to look for 4-4 fits over 3♣). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Why should 3D ask for 4-4 fits? If partner bid 3M over 3D I would never assume he is showing a 4 card major, I would just think he had values there. What if partner has 4S, 5C and a diamond stopper? What will he bid over 3D...3S? What if opener doesn't have a D stop, will he bid 3N? This sequence denies any stopper at all? What if opener has a 4 card major and a D stopper? He bids 3N and misses a 4-4 fit? Or he bids 3D and then over 3S bids what? Oh 3N... but I thought that denied a stopper... You are trying to do too much here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Dear Devil, What would 4H be? I would buy that that is a cue for spades, and denies a diamond cue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Why should 3D ask for 4-4 fits? If partner bid 3M over 3D I would never assume he is showing a 4 card major, I would just think he had values there. What if partner has 4S, 5C and a diamond stopper? What will he bid over 3D...3S? What if opener doesn't have a D stop, will he bid 3N? This sequence denies any stopper at all? What if opener has a 4 card major and a D stopper? He bids 3N and misses a 4-4 fit? Or he bids 3D and then over 3S bids what? Oh 3N... but I thought that denied a stopper... You are trying to do too much here. Of course that auction is problematic, but so is (as you know) the actual auction. We may have missed a superior 3N because with both spades and diamond stoppers, partner's priority is to show spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Why should 3D ask for 4-4 fits? If partner bid 3M over 3D I would never assume he is showing a 4 card major, I would just think he had values there. What if partner has 4S, 5C and a diamond stopper? What will he bid over 3D...3S? What if opener doesn't have a D stop, will he bid 3N? This sequence denies any stopper at all? What if opener has a 4 card major and a D stopper? He bids 3N and misses a 4-4 fit? Or he bids 3D and then over 3S bids what? Oh 3N... but I thought that denied a stopper... You are trying to do too much here. Of course that auction is problematic, but so is (as you know) the actual auction. We may have missed a superior 3N because with both spades and diamond stoppers, partner's priority is to show spades. no, we can't since we play leb and 3D denied a stopper, so if we had 4H and not 4S and a diamond stopper and no interest in going past game opp a D stopper and 4S we can just bid 3N. That is why we distinguish between stoppers and not stoppers :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Hmm ok the devil resigns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Let me be devil's advocate.This can't be natural, with 5+clubs and 4 hearts responder would start with a forcing 3♣ bid, over which it is still very easy find a 4-4 major fit. So this is a cue for spades, his only way to make a slam try without a diamond control, while it is very easy to force to game with 4 hearts and longer clubs... No, it won't be easy to find a 4-4 heart fit since partner will bid 3N with diamonds well stopped, and if he bids 3M he will be showing 5 of them not 4 of them, or a hand that is trying to cooperate in clubs, since he is not looking for a 4-4 fit. ... and if he does bid 3♥ it will be very hard to find out if we have a stopper in diamonds for 3♥ so there will be a reluctance to introduce an ordinary four-card heart suit even if you think that is what it shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 If it can be natural and we haven't discussed it then it is natural. This can be natural so it is natural. By the way whatever happened to negative doubles to find our major suit fits. They are much more efficient given that they start at a much lower level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 So the bidding so far 1 NT (2 ♦) You look at xx, AKxx, xx,KQxxx You really try 3 Diamond (stayman without a stopper) and bid 4 Club then? You will never reach 3 NT with this approach. Is it too hard for partner to understand that a 3 NT rebid (instead of 4 Club) here still denies stoppers and denies a spade fit, so that it MUST show 4 Hearts and some clubs? (Remeber that you had bid 2 NT followed by 3 Diamond to show stayman with a stopper in Diamonds). IF you believe that pd is capable to understand 3 NT, then 4 Club should be a cuebid for spades. But this seems to be wishful thinking. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 So the bidding so far 1 NT (2 ♦) You look at xx, AKxx, xx,KQxxx You really try 3 Diamond (stayman without a stopper) and bid 4 Club then? You will never reach 3 NT with this approach. Is it too hard for partner to understand that a 3 NT rebid (instead of 4 Club) here still denies stoppers and denies a spade fit, so that it MUST show 4 Hearts and some clubs? (Remeber that you had bid 2 NT followed by 3 Diamond to show stayman with a stopper in Diamonds). IF you believe that pd is capable to understand 3 NT, then 4 Club should be a cuebid for spades. But this seems to be wishful thinking. ;) ?? Sometimes you have a slam try that doesn't want to sign off in 3N. Bridge is not all about game bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 ?? Sometimes you have a slam try that doesn't want to sign off in 3N. Bridge is not all about game bidding. So with a slam interested hand with clubs and hearts but without points in diamonds and no negative double avaiable you want to bid 4 Club. Sounds like an interesting hand and a small target.Something like A,KQxx,xxx,AKxxx maybe? And you find pd with KQx, Axx, Axx, QJxx? You play much more hands then I do, so you will find these hands more often. Maybe once a decade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 glad to see the quality of the posts improving... lol. Good point having clubs and a 4 card major and a slam try is a very narrow target, so we should never have a way to show that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I would argue that you don't even need serious slam interest. How about Qxx AJxx - Kxxxxx? To answer Cascade's question, I would not make a negative double with that hand. Of course I agree that usually will have slam interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Distributional game going hands will have slam interest opposite a 1NT opening when partner has fitting honours and nothing wasted in our shortage(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 FWIW I play a negative X as promising 2+ cards in diamonds and the cuebid as showing shortness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 glad to see the quality of the posts improving... lol. Good point having clubs and a 4 card major and a slam try is a very narrow target, so we should never have a way to show that... The point is that you cannot have both. If 4 Club is a real suit, you cannot use it as a cue for spades an vicce versa. Quite obvious. So frequency surely matters. So the problem is: What will happen more often? And what is more useful? What can´t you show in another way? I voted and had taken 4 Club as natural, as "everybody" besides the devil, but is this really the best use for this bid? It is the normal meaning without discussion, but I am not yet convinced that it is the best approach. Isn´t it possible for you to show the clubs first and the hearts later? If not, you should play 4 Club natural. If yes, there is no need to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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