Easy problem

[Guest Jlall]

1. I double and bid 1♠ over 1♥, the most probable response and certainly a response for which I have to be prepared. He will often overbid now, especially with xxx in spades, which he will think is great support for a suit that is always 5 good and usually 6+ in length.

Agree:

 

...for a suit that is always 5 good and usually 6+ in length.

 

Disagree. Why would it always be "5 good" and why would it be remotely close to "usually 6+". Sometimes you have 5 medium spades and a hadn thats too good to overcall, and I would say 5 is certainly more likely than 6. I think if you have strict suit quality requirements for this sequence then you cannot use this sequence enough.

 

What if he bids 2♥ (over the double)? Now, we have the values for game, altho we may not have enough tricks... and how do we resolve denomination issues over 2♥? Bid 2♠? Bid 3♣?

 

Isn't a 2H bid a non problem since we can just bid 3C which suggests no suit and no stopper in clubs? 3C is actually a pretty good description except that we may have 3 hearts. If he bids 3H we can bid 3S and get to 3N still, or he can just bid 3N to begin with.

 

2. I bid 1♠. Worst case scenario is that he passes and we are in the wrong suit. It seems vanishingly unlikely that he will pass 1♠ with any hand on which 4♠ is good.

 

Do you routinely bid with 6 and 7 counts over 1S that don't have spade fits? These hands can easily make 3N cold, and I think it is normal to pass with them. I agree these hands are not so common but they are not vanishingly unlikely to me either. You will probably say you may not want to be in 3N opposite these hands, and while that is true sometimes I'm willing to take my chances.

 

or when we have a diamond partial... but double won't get us to the diamond partial when he also has 4 hearts.

 

I do not agree, after X-1H-1S partner is going to bid 2D if he has diamonds and not 3+ spades now. You can still find a diamond partial easily after doubling. And why does he need to have 4+ hearts to have a diamond partial anyways, he could just have some 2353 or 2344 where he's bidding 1D over your X.

 

Even when 1♠ is 'wrong', the opps may rescue us, via a negative double, a 1N bid on our left or a reopening on our right (altho p p x leaves me awkwardly placed)

 

I think a lot of auctions leave you awkwardly placed after bidding 1S, that is one of the reasons not to bid 1S. You are going to have a tough time ever showing your values. Even a simple auction like 1C 1S p 2S leaves you awkwardly placed. It will be tough to get to 3N or 5D now. The same is true after Xing only if partner has 4+ hearts (otherwise he will not bid 1H over your X and you will have only easy possible bids over 1D or 1N). Competitive auctions leave you poorly placed as well such as 1C 1S p p 2C, or even 1C 1S X p 2H (I assume you would X but you may play in a 4-2 spade fit now). If the auction went 1C X 1H p 2H instead you would have an easy X.

 

I think you downplay the disadvantages of 1S too much and overrate the chances that something bad happens in the specific auction 1C X p 1H.

[han]

Especially agree with Justin that Dbl-p-2H is not a problem auction.

[mikeh]

Justin:

 

I think that most experts tend towards the Kokish style of wide-range overcalls these days, so that with 16 hcp and a 5 card spade suit with only decent cards in the suit, and short(ish) hearts, most experts would vote for either 1♠ or 1N, depending on the rest of the hand. Thus I think that most (but not all) experts these days would expect either good spades or a decent 6 card suit. This is not the same as saying that double then spades GUARANTEES those holdings: just that I think most experts would expect their partner's next call to be based on that expectation.

 

Next, I did not say that the chances of missing game after 1♠ were vanishingly small: I said that the chances of missing 4♠ were vanishingly small, and I suspect that you'd agree with me on that.

 

Obviously, 1♠ poses a much greater risk of missing 3N, whereas double enhances the chances of finding it. However, is it clear that partner will look for 3N after your double then spades if partner has, for example, a 3=5=2=3 hand, or even a 3=4=3=3 hand, since he will usually feel constrained to raise with a modest hand (which he announces via 1♥) and support and enough to bid again?

 

So it is not as if double then spades is a panacea in terms of finding 3N.

 

As for finding diamonds, your points are valid.

 

I do think the decision is close, and while I have scored the choices in my order of preference, I don't think that any of them is a 'mistake', altho I really (personally) don't like diamonds, primarily because I am not going to be happy if LHO bids 1♥ and partner passes.. I may never be able to find spades safely.

 

BTW, as to a 2♥ response not being a problem.... I think you are underestimating the problems after your proposed 3♣ call when partner can't bid notrump. What is he to do with a 9 count 3=4=3=3, for example? My guess is he rebids his hearts.... admittedly, we are now looking at so many hcp that even the 4=2 is probably safe when he lacks even the Q of clubs :) And maybe, given our strength, I am worrying too much about a minor possibility.

[han]

BTW, as to a 22♥ response not being a problem.... I think you are underestimating the problems after your proposed 33♣ call when partner can't bid notrump. What is he to do with a 9 count 3=4=3=3, for example? My guess is he rebids his hearts.... admittedly, we are now looking at so many hcp that even the 4=2 is probably safe when he lacks even the Q of clubs cool.gif And maybe, given our strength, I am worrying too much about a minor possibility.

 

So he'll bid 3H and we bid 3S. Since 2S would have been forcing this is not how ones bids with a good 5-card suit. I think partner should have a decent stab at the best game.

[Guest Jlall]

Justin:

 

I think that most experts tend towards the Kokish style of wide-range overcalls these days, so that with 16 hcp and a 5 card spade suit with only decent cards in the suit, and short(ish) hearts, most experts would vote for either 1♠ or 1N, depending on the rest of the hand. Thus I think that most (but not all) experts these days would expect either good spades or a decent 6 card suit. This is not the same as saying that double then spades GUARANTEES those holdings: just that I think most experts would expect their partner's next call to be based on that expectation.

Hi, I agree with you re 5 spades and 16 points, do not agree that the same applies with 5 spades and 19 points though. I think most experts will Double with 19 points and 5 spades even if the spades are KJxxx (I know you+kokish might take exception to this :). If partner Xed with any hand with 16 points I would be surprised, I would def expect 6 good spades then :) But I think 5 spades with a lot of points is more likely than underpoint+lots of spades. I would not bid on the assumption partner had a really good suit, I would just bid on the assumption he had a lot of points.

 

Next, I did not say that the chances of missing game after 1♠ were vanishingly small: I said that the chances of missing 4♠ were vanishingly small, and I suspect that you'd agree with me on that.

 

You're right, sorry.

 

I do think the decision is close, and while I have scored the choices in my order of preference, I don't think that any of them is a 'mistake'

 

Ya I agree totally.

 

BTW, as to a 2♥ response not being a problem.... I think you are underestimating the problems after your proposed 3♣ call when partner can't bid notrump. What is he to do with a 9 count 3=4=3=3, for example? My guess is he rebids his hearts.... admittedly, we are now looking at so many hcp that even the 4=2 is probably safe when he lacks even the Q of clubs  And maybe, given our strength, I am worrying too much about a minor possibility.

 

Maybe, I think we will not end in hearts though after 3H-3S he should know I don't even have 3 hearts. Who knows where we will end up though, I'm not sure if he will raise to 4S and try the 4-3 or if he will bid 3N and try for clubs splitting. This is a hard hand no matter what approach you take though (lots of points, no fit, one suit unstopped).

[cherdano]

I am not sure I understand how Kokish got into the discussion. I thought the Kokish school teaches to refuse to double with strong unbalanced hands unless they are really huge, so when a Kokish-advocate doubles and bids, isn't he more likely to be balanced?

[Guest Jlall]

I am not sure I understand how Kokish got into the discussion. I thought the Kokish school teaches to refuse to double with strong unbalanced hands unless they are really huge, so when a Kokish-advocate doubles and bids, isn't he more likely to be balanced?

kokish will overcall with a balanced hand with a lot of points too.

[mikeh]

I am not sure I understand how Kokish got into the discussion. I thought the Kokish school teaches to refuse to double with strong unbalanced hands unless they are really huge, so when a Kokish-advocate doubles and bids, isn't he more likely to be balanced?

No: if kokish doubled and bid, he either has a great hand and a great suit or a stupendous hand and a good suit: at least, this is how I expect him to bid, and I have both played against him and been coached by him (and, of course, have read years of his entries and directing comments in the BW).

 

So, while I am not claiming that I know what he would do on the hand, I am claiming that I very strongly expect that he, as advancer, would bid on the basis that we had at least 5 good spades plus a great hand if we doubled and bid 1♠.

 

My guess is that Kokish would, on the hand, bid 1N :P I would expect 1♠ as the second choice for Eric.

[whereagles]

I still fail to see what the problem is with dbl + 1NT (over pd's 1♥)..............

[helene_t]

I still fail to see what the problem is with dbl + 1NT (over pd's 1♥)..............

I'm sure you have heard about the idea that a notrump bid by the partner behind the opp who bid suit shows a stopper. You may think it's a silly idea but I'm sure you've heard about it.

[whereagles]

yeah, I've heard of it and think it's silly. Bull's-eye for you :)

 

To have a stopper might make sense at the 2 or 3 level, but at the 1 level it's more important to show shape/strength.

[jtfanclub]

yeah, I've heard of it and think it's silly. Bull's-eye for you ;)

 

To have a stopper might make sense at the 2 or 3 level, but at the 1 level it's more important to show shape/strength.

And you have 18 points and balanced, which is...not X plus 1NT. It's just 1NT.

 

Yeah, you have lots of controls. You also have no club stopper, no 5 card suit, and no assurance of a fit. I think that an X followed by 1NT shows a hand with a lot more power than you have - a hand that can make game across a random 5 count. Even if your partner has, say, the KQJx of clubs and no other points, it's not going to help. Then they'll find the heart lead, and you'll be down.

 

I'm not sure what I'd do at the table. I expect 1NT to be successful in match points, going for -50 or -100 when the opponents have 110 or so. In IMPs, I'd be tempted to X and pass 1♥, figuring that the opps will save us (as they so often do at my level).

[whereagles]

And you have 18 points and balanced, which is...not X plus 1NT. It's just 1NT.

It depends on how strict you want 1NT overcalls to be. If you're playing 16-18 or 15-bad 18, then yeah it's a 1NT overcall.

[skjaeran]

BTW, for me, 1♦ is the 4th choice: I place them as 1♠ 100, 1N 80 double 70 1♦ 60.

That's about how I feel about this too.

[Echognome]

Ok, so I'm just gonna say what happened at the table and only make a half-hearted attempt at justifying it. I agree with many posters that there are a variety of actions, all of which could work out or not. So I took an action that no one has even considered... I passed. So let me give my quick two cents on this.

 

Yes we have a great hand. Yes it's possible that pass can work out horribly. But we have an opening bid on our right, so it's entirely possible that the hand isn't ours. Pass gives up competing for the part-score admittedly and we do have two suits outside of clubs that we'd like to compete in. Heck, we even have a decent dummy for clubs. So the idea I had was if it went (1C) - P - (1H) - P; (2H) - ? Now I would double back in (not as ideal a hand as is typically shown, but certainly describes it decently).

 

Anyway, what actually happened was it went: (1C) - P - (1NT) - AP. And as the play unfolded, declarer took a line of play that didn't expect me to have an 18 count and pass throughout! (I was lucky in a sense that the actual declarer would notice my high card points.)

 

I'm not advocating that pass is the best bid (I think personally the doublers have convinced me), but I think it's interesting that no one has even considered it.

[pclayton]

Ok, so I'm just gonna say what happened at the table and only make a half-hearted attempt at justifying it. I agree with many posters that there are a variety of actions, all of which could work out or not. So I took an action that no one has even considered... I passed. So let me give my quick two cents on this.

 

Yes we have a great hand. Yes it's possible that pass can work out horribly. But we have an opening bid on our right, so it's entirely possible that the hand isn't ours. Pass gives up competing for the part-score admittedly and we do have two suits outside of clubs that we'd like to compete in. Heck, we even have a decent dummy for clubs. So the idea I had was if it went (1C) - P - (1H) - P; (2H) - ? Now I would double back in (not as ideal a hand as is typically shown, but certainly describes it decently).

 

Anyway, what actually happened was it went: (1C) - P - (1NT) - AP. And as the play unfolded, declarer took a line of play that didn't expect me to have an 18 count and pass throughout! (I was lucky in a sense that the actual declarer would notice my high card points.)

 

I'm not advocating that pass is the best bid (I think personally the doublers have convinced me), but I think it's interesting that no one has even considered it.

I have sympathy for a pass if the opps are vul, especially at MPs.

[han]

Pass is insane, doubling after 1C-1H-2H is nowhere close to showing a hand this powerful.

 

Just my 2 cents. :rolleyes:

[Guest Jlall]

Pass is insane, doubling after 1C-1H-2H is nowhere close to showing a hand this powerful.

 

Just my 2 cents. :(

Yes agree, the problem with pass is that even if the auction goes in this specific way (which is ideal for you), you haven't shown anything near this good when you X. You could easily miss a game, or if you try to find it (by raising over whatever partner bids) you could get too high.

[Cascade]

Pass could work on some hands.

 

However my experience is that sitting around with values (even a bit less than this 18) is not long run winning bridge.