Double after passing over a weak two

[gnasher]

I'm hoping for a bit less unanimity than in my last poll.

[Guest Jlall]

Someone find the old thread about this auction :angry:

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I tried to cheat, getting the votes, before casting my

vote, but there are no votes yet.

 

I guess it is penalty, anything else makse no sense.

 

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

If p is a passed hand it can only p penalty, so I would play it as penalty overall for simplicity.

 

Maybe it would be a good idea to agree to what level we play those delayed t/o doubles which also come up after 1-level openings. I suppose 2♥ or 3♦ or somewhere in between could be the highest level for a delayed t/o double.

 

Obviously they do not apply after we have opened, for example

1m-(1M)-pass-(2M)

pass-(pass)-dbl*

is penalty even if

(1M)-pass-(2M)-pass

(pass)-dbl*

is t/o.

 

Maybe there is already a standard for this, I would be very interested in hearing about it if that's the case.

[han]

Wait, you hope for less unanimity and you come with this? :angry:

[kenrexford]

I like to play this as takeout, but short in RESPONDER"s suit.

 

Just kidding. :angry:

[dake50]

No 1st round t/o fearing 4S+ bounce would get us too high.

But Game close now as clearly top-bounded.

[gwnn]

yea Helene what about

 

1♠-p-3♠(lott raise, almost s/o)-p

p-X

 

I'm not sure but I sure would take it as penalty

[Free]

I'm hoping for a bit less unanimity than in my last poll.

Keep hoping... This one is clear ;)

[gnasher]

Well the voting is close to unanimous, though few commentators have provided anything in the way of analysis or justification. Here are the reasons that I think the question worth asking:

 

A penalty double on this auction is, to say the least, rare. I can't remember ever making this call. The only time I have seen anyone else make it, they had a balanced 13 count with SA98x.

 

If you do have a hand suitable for a penalty double, your partner will be quite weak, because he failed to act with what is probably a void in their suit. Your hands will fit badly, so you won't have a game bonus to protect.

 

There are several hand-types that would pass over 2S but might then want to act on the next round. for example:

x AJxxx xx KJ10xx

x AJx Q10xxx Kxxx

x AJxx Qx K10xxxx

 

With any of these I'd want to bid over 3S, certainly when non-vulnerable, without ruling out defending or playing in 3NT.

 

It seems to me that the likely loss from using this double to mean something else is tiny, and the potential gain quite significant.

[han]

I wouldn't want to act with any of these hands. If I did want to act with some 2-suiter that I didn't dare to bid with earlier then I could bid 3NT.

[MickyB]

Two-way - either pure takeout (a void and an eight-count, say) or pure penalty.

[Finch]

I play 1S P 3S P P x as takeout, but I play this auction as penalties. They are extremely rare auctions, but I've had the penalty double after a weak two a couple of times. It's usually something like a 4414 14-count or so.

 

Part of the difference is that people like to raise a weak 2 without their call (sometimes on a doubleton) whereas 1S P 3S is basically always a 9-card fit.

[Guest Jlall]

btw last time I posted this auction a few years ago my hand was like... xxx in their suit and 14 and we were cold for 4M. Partner passed it with a stiff spade not knowing what it was and using the "look at your hand" thingy. This was at the team trials and the experts polled were split on the meaning.

[jdonn]

I agree that playing it as "look at your hand to tell which" is so bad that it's completely unplayable. Picking either one is ok, but I think takeout is better.

[the hog]

There are several hand-types that would pass over 2S but might then want to act on the next round. for example:

x AJxxx xx KJ10xx

x AJx Q10xxx Kxxx

x AJxx Qx K10xxxx

 

With any of these I'd want to bid over 3S, certainly when non-vulnerable, without ruling out defending or playing in 3NT.

 

It seems to me that the likely loss from using this double to mean something else is tiny, and the potential gain quite significant.

You don't want to bid over 2S, but you want to bid over 3S? Hmmmm!!!! Tell me, do you ever play high stakes rubber? I so, where and can I join the game please?

[mikestar]

You don't want to bid over 2S, but you want to bid over 3S? Hmmmm!!!! Tell me, do you ever play high stakes rubber? I so, where and can I join the game please?

Agree 100%.

[whereagles]

weakish t/o for meeeeeeeee