TOO TOUGH-2

[Guest Jlall]

It is impossible to have a 5-5 hand that is good enough to open 1S but will pass a limit raise.

I don't think this is true opp the 3 card LR (agree opp the 4 card LR). Of course AK of your second suit + A + JT9 of trumps is not the exception lol.

[han]

OK, give me an exception that you would open 1S and pass 1S-1NT-2C-3S.

[jtfanclub]

OK, give me an exception that you would open 1S and pass 1S-1NT-2C-3S.

65432

A

AK

Q5432

 

Even all you IMPs players would pass that, I suspect.

[Guest Jlall]

OK, give me an exception that you would open 1S and pass 1S-1NT-2C-3S.

65432

A

AK

Q5432

 

Even all you IMPs players would pass that, I suspect.

ya this is a good example and it's even a 13 count. How about Jxxxx KQ A Qxxxx just to make sure hannie will agree :)

[tomb3113]

In my system:

 

1♠-1NT

2♠-pass

 

1♠ is 5+♠ 12-14 or 18-22 unbalanced

1NT is a relay

2♠ is 12-14 with 5♠ and 4♣

 

Over 2♠ North knows about the double fit but with most of his values in the red suit shoud pass when he knows his p his limited to 14 pts. (and with a nice 14 south would open a strong♣)

[Echognome]

It is impossible to have a 5-5 hand that is good enough to open 1S but will pass a limit raise. The playing strength increases a lot once a fit is found.

I do not disagree. If we have to make a go/no go decision based only upon a 3-card limit raise opposite, then we should go.

 

My question is different. Supposing we have knowledge of the limit raise at the 2-level, is the suggestion then that we should simply blast 4♠ (and this is certainly good in the sense that we have had a very uniformative auction) or should we consult partner with a short- or long-suit try?

 

I can certainly understand that on this hand with our side source of tricks and good spade intermediates, that a blast may be warranted. But if we alter the hand slightly, should we not consult?

[cherdano]

Don't worry guys, I have seen Han open and sign off over a 3-card limit raise with 5-5 majors in a competitive auction (the defenders didn't find their ruff in the other major...) :(

[Fluffy]

Hell, with a 5-5 I always bid 4 after a single raise, and someone is passing a limit one? :)

[han]

OK, give me an exception that you would open 1S and pass 1S-1NT-2C-3S.

65432

A

AK

Q5432

 

Even all you IMPs players would pass that, I suspect.

ya this is a good example and it's even a 13 count. How about Jxxxx KQ A Qxxxx just to make sure hannie will agree :)

Thank you jlall! :P

 

Don't worry guys, I have seen Han open and sign off over a 3-card limit raise with 5-5 majors in a competitive auction (the defenders didn't find their ruff in the other major...) tongue.gif

 

Yes, I remember that hand of course :) , but that was (1) a mistake to sign off and (2) probably not an opening hand.

[jtfanclub]

Hell, with a 5-5 I always bid 4 after a single raise, and someone is passing a limit one? :)

Last time for this thread, I promise.

 

You can look at jdonn's examples for a single raise, and even though all the points are working, I claim all of them are good enough for game in vulnerable IMPs, maybe good enough for game in NV IMPs, but not good enough for MPs. Add some non-working points and they become 3 card limit raises (at least, all but #2 do).

 

If you have an 8 card fit, and you clearly can't handle a 4-1 trump split, you'd better be able to almost claim on any 3-2 trump split in MPs. Throw something in like needing a second suit also needing to split 3-2, or a finesse, or them not finding the killer lead, and it's just not worth it any more.

 

Can I at least get you people to agree that...no, I'm not going to get that either, I can tell. Can I at least get agreement that Fluffy's strategy is a whole lot more likely to work at IMPs than at MPs?

[bhall]

I will make a definitive statement. In actual play it would be 100% impossible for any honest player who is advanced or expert to get to any contract but 4♠. If I had to find some auction to reach any other contract, it would be north raising the opening bid to a very heavy 2♠.

In 1972, there were many American pairs that would open this hand 1♣. After that start, you can construct auctions ending in 3N, e.g., 1♣-1♦-1♠-3♣-3♥-3N. An old view was that 5-5 blacks were OK to open 1♣ until they were big enough for the "high reverse:" 1♠-2 Red-3♣. Especially with good ♣ and bad ♠.

 

While 2/1 was popular, it was not a near-universal choice among advanced players of that era.

[cherdano]

OK, give me an exception that you would open 1S and pass 1S-1NT-2C-3S.

65432

A

AK

Q5432

 

Even all you IMPs players would pass that, I suspect.

ya this is a good example and it's even a 13 count. How about Jxxxx KQ A Qxxxx just to make sure hannie will agree :)

Thank you jlall! :P

He wasn't talking to you!

[han]

Uday killed hannie (at my request).

[skjaeran]

With my regular pard we'd start:

 

1♣ - 1♠

2♠

 

1♠ = 6-9 bal/unlimited with ♦

2♠ = 55 11-13 (bad 14)

 

After that we MIGHT stop short of game (♠ partial) or end up in 4♠, depending on how conservatively we'd evaluate our hands.

 

We'd absolutely not reach 3NT, that's for sure.