Go for Slam?

[rogerclee]

IMPS, White

 

♠QT8xx ♥Axx ♦Txx ♣xx

 

Uncontested, partner opens

 

2C-2D*

3C-3S

4S-?

 

2D is GF, and that's all you know. If it matters to you, you don't play Kokish. Partner does not open 2C just because he had 20 points and was afraid you'd pass.

[pclayton]

I'd try for slam, but when I open 2♣ and rebid a minor, in my style, I show a very good hand. Lay out some typical hands for pard. I think you'll find slam looks good on many of them and that the 5 level is pretty safe.

 

I wonder if pard knows he could have cued 4 red on the way to 4♠ ?

[Cascade]

I think with an Ace and some values I am worth one slam try. Normally with just a little more (say a useful 8 count) I would drive to slam unless I find a problem.

[han]

I think that it is close, I'd probably pass.

[kfay]

I voted 'never.' I feel no optimism with this hand. Partner just bid 4♠ and I'm pretty good but also pretty flat.

 

There are probably a lot of hands partner could have that make slam laydown but frankly I feel like I already bid my hand. In my opinion partner didn't cooperate.

[gwnn]

I voted 'never.'  I feel no optimism with this hand.  Partner just bid 4♠ and I'm pretty good but also pretty flat.

 

There are probably a lot of hands partner could have that make slam laydown but frankly I feel like I already bid my hand.  In my opinion partner didn't cooperate.

the two juniors* pass on this hand, take note! surely there's no slam!

 

 

*as of today. the kfay-gwnn partnership have not yet missed a 21 hcp game!

[hrothgar]

I'd definitely try for Slam

 

minor suit oriented 2♣ openers tend to be much better than major suit oriented two suiters. Partner rates to have a 6322 or 6331 with 3 card Spade support.

 

From my perspective, the interesting question is how to try for Slam. The big danger is obviously that you have two Diamond losers off the top. Then again, they need to find a Diamond lead...

 

I lean towards an immediate 5♠ asking about the quality of partner's trump support. Even if partner tables xx or xxx in Diamonds, we might easily make 6S if the opponents lead a Heart rather than a Diamond.

[ArtK78]

Try? I would be virtually certain that there is a slam.

 

In my style, a 2♣ opener on an unbalanced hand (i.e., one that doesn't rebid 2NT) shows a 3 loser hand or better. My partner has spade length - therefore, the SQ eliminates one of his losers. Unless he is void in hearts, the ♥A eliminates another loser. So, there is only one loser.

 

I would cue bid 5♥ even if I knew that partner's 2♣ style was not this sound, as the five level should still be safe and slam could be very good opposite many hands consistent with the bidding, i.e., AKx xx Ax AKQJxx. There are a lot of hands that partner could have that are not even close to a 2♣ opening that will produce excellent play for slam - for example, AKx xxx x AKQJxx. And there are many others consistent with the auction that have excellent play for slam.

 

Pass is just chicken.

[jdonn]

I have several points to make. One is that the 5 level is clearly not safe, as partner might have Kxx or Axx of spades. Another is this is very little extra to have beyond the original 2♦ bid. Minimum spade length, flat hand, just a little extra strength. On top of those things, I don't think conventional wisdom says a 3m rebid promises some amazing hand, just a 3♦ rebid, because over 3♣ we have 3♦ available to punt. All things considered, sign me up for pass.

[kenrexford]

♠Axx ♥x ♦xx ♣AKQJxxx?

 

Not good enough.

 

Um...

 

♠AKJ ♥void ♦QJxx ♣AKQJxx?

 

Horrifying, but the five-level is safe.

 

Seems very strong odds to make at least five here.

How about a simple 5♥ cue?

[jdonn]

I don't understand your examples Ken. Even 4♠ is not a favorite on the first which is not a 2♣ opener anyway, and 5 is not at all safe due to a diamond ruff on the second. Meanwhile neither makes slam, it seems you should be presenting examples of hands that actually make slam, no? (And I'm not denying in the least that such examples exist)

[Guest Jlall]

I wonder if pard knows he could have cued 4 red on the way to 4♠ ?

If I was pard I wouldn't know this, sometimes I have a 2 suiter?

 

Anyways, I bid 5H

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

most likely I pass, but never say never.

 

It depends of course a little bit on what

does "partner does not open 2C, just

because he has 20HCP" really means.

 

If I would make a try, it would be 5S, a

quantitative move.

 

I am not sure, opener could have made a

cue bid on the road to 4S, but since 2D

already showed some life opener may have

been able to take over, he knows about the

sure trick I have, and about the fit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cascade]

What does 2♦ is game force mean? Does that mean you play 2♥ as some sort of negative?

[whereagles]

People here tend to open 2♣ north of 11 playing tricks, so slam should be a lay-down. Opposite a random pard, pass is obvious, though :)

[rogerclee]

What does 2♦ is game force mean?  Does that mean you play 2♥ as some sort of negative?

Yes. This is the most common treatment around the states.

 

2D = GF, about any K or two Q's

2H = broke

 

2D catch-all is probably the second most popular treatment, but I may have these two mixed up. I can say with some confidence that in southern California, the first is more popular.

[Finch]

I wonder if pard knows he could have cued 4 red on the way to 4♠ ?

If I was pard I wouldn't know this, sometimes I have a 2 suiter?

 

Anyways, I bid 5H

me too

[SoTired]

to make 6S, opener needs running clubs, a diam control and the ♠AKx(x) (there are many other combinations, but that is a simple one). Something like AKx xx KQ AKQxxx? Is that too much to ask for? And if I bid 5H, wouldn't partner know to bid 6S? Next: The 5-level is probably safe. Hard to picture a hand that isn't.

 

So that settles it: Chance for 6, partner will know what to do, and 5-level is safe

 

5H

[skjaeran]

I'd try 5♥. The 5-level might not be absolutely safe. But some risk should be taken - slam might be laydown.

[mikeh]

I think that this is a tough problem.

 

I appreciate the point that 4 red might be a 2-suiter, but surely that is a very low-frequency holding, given that the expert trend seems to be to open even very powerful 2 suiters 1♣ and then force, force, force... and that this is workable because the expert trend is to very rarely pass a 1♣ opening.

 

It may in fact make sense to use 4 red on the given auction as a cue in support of spades.

 

But, that would surely be a matter for agreement, not assumption. So 4♠ is wide-range: opener has to fear a worse hand... worse spades and no Ace.. we'd have bid the same way with Jxxxx KJxx xx xx for example.

 

This in turn means that I think we have to take a chance here: we have to make a move, and 5♥ is the only one possible.

[Cascade]

What does 2♦ is game force mean?  Does that mean you play 2♥ as some sort of negative?

Yes. This is the most common treatment around the states.

 

2D = GF, about any K or two Q's

2H = broke

 

2D catch-all is probably the second most popular treatment, but I may have these two mixed up. I can say with some confidence that in southern California, the first is more popular.

If you describe 2♦ as GF does that mean that 2♣ was not GF? I am interested in auctions that can stop somewhere other than after a 2NT rebid by opener (or maybe via a transfer after 2NT by opener).

[hrothgar]

So 4♠ is wide-range: opener has to fear a worse hand... worse spades and no Ace.. we'd have bid the same way with Jxxxx KJxx xx xx for example.

 

This in turn means that I think we have to take a chance here: we have to make a move, and 5♥ is the only one possible.

Not sure if I agree with this sentiment

 

From my perspective, there are two big concerns with the spade slam

 

The first the question of a Diamond control

The second is the quality of partner's trump support

 

I'm not sure whether its possible to cover both bases.

 

A 5♥ cue will focus partner's attention on a Diamond control, but doesn't leave room to ask about Spade support.

 

A 5♠ raise will focus partner's attention on the trump suit, but it ignores Diamonds completely

 

If I only get information about one or the other, I rather know about the trump suit. I'm going to play a Spade slam. I can't dodge Spade losers.

 

If, however, I end up in 6♠ off two cashing Diamonds there is always the chance that the opponents will misdefend. Maybe the the Diamond honors are split. Maybe RHO is sitting on AK of Diamonds but LHO will lead a Heart. I'm only really screwed if LHO happens to have the AK of Diamonds and partner tables xx or some such...

[mike777]

IMPS, White

 

♠QT8xx ♥Axx ♦Txx ♣xx

 

Uncontested, partner opens

 

2C-2D*

3C-3S

4S-?

 

2D is GF, and that's all you know. If it matters to you, you don't play Kokish. Partner does not open 2C just because he had 20 points and was afraid you'd pass.

5H

 

I think partner promises a 3 loser hand and it seems I got 1-2 winners so I move on.

[cherdano]

So 4♠ is wide-range: opener has to fear a worse hand... worse spades and no Ace.. we'd have bid the same way with Jxxxx KJxx xx xx for example.

 

This in turn means that I think we have to take a chance here: we have to make a move, and 5♥ is the only one possible.

Not sure if I agree with this sentiment

 

From my perspective, there are two big concerns with the spade slam

 

The first the question of a Diamond control

The second is the quality of partner's trump support

 

I'm not sure whether its possible to cover both bases.

 

A 5♥ cue will focus partner's attention on a Diamond control, but doesn't leave room to ask about Spade support.

 

A 5♠ raise will focus partner's attention on the trump suit, but it ignores Diamonds completely

 

If I only get information about one or the other, I rather know about the trump suit. I'm going to play a Spade slam. I can't dodge Spade losers.

 

If, however, I end up in 6♠ off two cashing Diamonds there is always the chance that the opponents will misdefend. Maybe the the Diamond honors are split. Maybe RHO is sitting on AK of Diamonds but LHO will lead a Heart. I'm only really screwed if LHO happens to have the AK of Diamonds and partner tables xx or some such...

IMO you are thinking of this auction the wrong way. If we make a slam try, partner knows roughly how good we are -- better than a minimum 2♦, but not good enough to force to slam. That's roughly two useful cards. We have no idea where partner's cards are.

 

Hence we should not be asking questions, but showing our hand. 5♥ denies cards in the minors, shows a heart cards, and likely a spade card. Partner will be in a good position to decide.

(Conversely, a 5♠ bid would show good trumps and nothing to cue outside.)

[han]

Agree with Arend on that.