2S X

[benlessard]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=skt7xhkjdajtxcxxx&s=sjh98xxxdkqxcqjxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

(P)==P==(P)==1D

(1S)=X==(2D)=P

(2S)=X= all pass

 

2D was limit raise

-470

[rogerclee]

North went nuts. Passing with his hand is inconceivable; 100% to him.

[655321]

North went nuts. Passing with his hand is inconceivable; 100% to him.

It is almost inconceivable to me that partner's pass is nonforcing after 1H.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

Sorry, Roger, couldn't resist. :)

 

Um, who is to blame?

If North had opened a weak NT, I think a negative double by South is bad with a singleton spade. On the actual auction, North is very likely to hold a weak NT, so there is real risk in doubling on a hand with very little defense, and a partial diamond fit. On the other hand he does have a shortage in their suit, and a lot of HCP. From North's point of view, a pass is not attractive, but neither is any action. I can see that passing and hoping to beat 2♠ X might appeal.

 

So even though the result is pretty bad, I have sympathy for both players, but I suppose 2NT scrambling instead of the final pass is best, so I must blame North.

[Guest Jlall]

I don't think this is a crazy result, the second X is probably rich but I totally understand it (partners shape is the only one that offers no fit). Norths pass is certainly reasonable too, it would be very normal at MP, at imps maybe he's supposed to bid 2N. It wouldn't surprise me if a simulation showed north's pass to be the long term winner though.

[TimG]

Is that second double really takeout?

[Guest Jlall]

Is that second double really takeout?

umm ya dude... 4 realz

[TimG]

I know that north is going to look at his four spades and assume that the double is takeout.

 

What if the auction had been:

 

(P)-P-(P)-1♦

(1♠)-DBL-(1N)-P

(2♠)-DBL

 

?

 

Or, what if 2♦ had only shown a constructive raise to 2♠ rather than a limit raise?

[P_Marlowe]

Is that second double really takeout?

... I would say, the 2nd double is still for take out,

but it is also optional, at least to a certain degree,

meaning, if one makes it, one has to take into

account, that the 2nd double will get passed out

sometimes.

 

And because of this, I think the South hand is a little

bit light for this action, but since South is a passed hand,

the action is still ok.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Guest Jlall]

I know that north is going to look at his four spades and assume that the double is takeout.

 

What if the auction had been:

 

(P)-P-(P)-1♦

(1♠)-DBL-(1N)-P

(2♠)-DBL

 

?

 

Or, what if 2♦ had only shown a constructive raise to 2♠ rather than a limit raise?

These are very different auctions since in the original auction they have bid and raised spades. It does not matter if they raised in an artificial way or if they raised with 2S, or if the raise was weak, limit, constructive etc. The point is they have an 8 card fit and they are at the 2 level. Responders hand is undefined other than "4+ hearts." Penalty is largely regarded as an infrequent and unuseful agreement when these conditions apply.

 

In the second auction there is more of a case for penalty, but it is still for takeout in my agreements, because again responders hand is largely undefined and they need to have a bid for a large variety of hands that they could not bid if X is penalty. For instance:

 

xx KQxx Kxx Kxxx

xxx Kxxx Ax Axxx

 

etc. The only reason penalty is more reasonable when responder hasn't raised is that A) they could be on a misfit, B) even if they have an 8 card fit responder is behind the spades (whereas if dummy is going to hit with spades then a holding like KJ9x would not be nearly as good).

[jtfanclub]

I don't think this is a crazy result, the second X is probably rich but I totally understand it (partners shape is the only one that offers no fit). Norths pass is certainly reasonable too, it would be very normal at MP, at imps maybe he's supposed to bid 2N. It wouldn't surprise me if a simulation showed north's pass to be the long term winner though.

I can't believe that's right with the 1♠ bid on his left. If the 1♠ bid was on his right, then sure. But there seems to be an awful lot of warnings that they're going to make 2♠X, such as the 2♦ bid.

[MFA]

I hate north's pass here. He has an uncomfortable hand, but surely he must scramble with 2NT.

[gwnn]

@ TimG: The less you know of partner's shape, the more t/o a double is.

 

The lower a double is made, the closer the double is to the ideal "4441" in the context of the double and the more urge partner should feel of bidding on.

 

 

The 2nd double was certainly a little pushing it, but what can you do. Passing it seems quite normal.

[Guest Jlall]

I don't think this is a crazy result, the second X is probably rich but I totally understand it (partners shape is the only one that offers no fit). Norths pass is certainly reasonable too, it would be very normal at MP, at imps maybe he's supposed to bid 2N. It wouldn't surprise me if a simulation showed north's pass to be the long term winner though.

I can't believe that's right with the 1♠ bid on his left. If the 1♠ bid was on his right, then sure. But there seems to be an awful lot of warnings that they're going to make 2♠X, such as the 2♦ bid.

Yes of course there are warning signs, on the other hand he expected more from his partner. I really don't know who to blame here, I would not have taken either action that either took but I would not have considered either action "bad" had my teammate done it.

[tomb3113]

South knows that when he doubles North will be sitting most of the time with 4 spade and will at least consider passing. My question is then why south should X with no defensive values and no sure tricks? IMO if he doesn t want to play in 2SX he should find another bid. What can go wrong if he bids 2NT? Partner sitting with the S stopper should realise this can t be naturel and will bid on (even if he passes it won t be a disaster!)

So even if North pass is a bit optimistic at IMP, i will blame south for putting his partner on the hot seat.

[TimG]

So, 2NT and DBL are both takeout?

[Guest Jlall]

2N by responder (the negative Xer) would be natural over 2S.

[EricK]

I don't like the second X. South has no more than he promised the first time, and he's got to assume that partner heard him the first time. North is unlikely to have 4♥ as he had a chance to bid them, and even if he has 3♥ it is not at all certain we will find that fit. So I don't think there's much of an upside and a fair chance that we will land in a 7 card fit (not to mention the disaster which actually happened).

[Cascade]

I don't think this is a crazy result, the second X is probably rich but I totally understand it (partners shape is the only one that offers no fit).

Sure we might have a 5=3 heart fit but is north really supposed to bid 3♥ on a three-card suit.

[Cascade]

For me north has a normal 2NT. Passing has little to gain. The opponents are too likely to have eight tricks and we are very unlikely to set them two or more on this auction.

[benlessard]

I was South and my reasoning was that West 2D (limit) inviting vs a passed hand was probably based on a 11 hcp with 4 trumps and some ruffing power, Its rare for me to have a 3 trumps raise worth a limit vs a passed hand. Maybe some do limit raises facing a passed hand to show values without game aspiration. As west holding 3 trumps i would almost always bid 2S.

 

PS If partner X 2D what do you play ?

 

1- longish D with desire to compete to 3D

2- lead directing (D or not D)

3- support X (3H)

 

I play 1 but i think 3 might be a better treatment

[655321]

PS If partner X 2D what do you play ?

 

1- longish D with desire to compete to 3D

2- lead directing (D or not D)

3- support X (3H)

 

I play 1 but i think 3 might be a better treatment

As a general rule I play double of the cue raise as takeout of their suit - never (1) or (2) above. In this particular case (South has basically bid hearts) double is a support double.

[MFA]

I was South and my reasoning was that West 2D (limit) inviting vs a passed hand was probably based on a 11 hcp with 4 trumps and some ruffing power, Its rare for me to have a 3 trumps raise worth a limit vs a passed hand. Maybe some do limit raises facing a passed hand to show values without game aspiration. As west holding 3 trumps i would almost always bid 2S.

 

PS If partner X 2D what do you play ?

 

1- longish D with desire to compete to 3D

2- lead directing (D or not D)

3- support X (3H)

 

I play 1 but i think 3 might be a better treatment

X of 2♦ is takeout of spades for me. This suggests 3 hearts, but it's not a support double as such.

[TimG]

In the second auction there is more of a case for penalty, but it is still for takeout in my agreements, because again responders hand is largely undefined and they need to have a bid for a large variety of hands that they could not bid if X is penalty. For instance:

 

xx KQxx Kxx Kxxx

xxx Kxxx Ax Axxx

These don't strike me as "takeout" doubles. More: "I've got extras for my actions so far and no clear action." Not all doubles are either "takeout" or "penalty" even if we don't label them "optional" or "cooperative".

 

I would have expected the double in question in the opening post to be somewhere in that fuzzy zone between takeout and penalty. And, as such, I can't imagine north not accepting the penalty invitation by passing with the actual trump holding.

 

I don't buy the argument that someone has put forth that the opponents are sure to have 8 trumps on this auction. A four-card 1♠ overcall is not that uncommon and the cue-bid limit raise could easily be based upon three-card support.

 

I think it should be unusual for responder to double 2♠ with a singleton spade. Looking at a singleton spade, he knows that opener is likely to have four-cards in the suit and will often think it a good idea to play for penalties with such a hand. Something that responder is going to be very uncomfortable doing.

[benlessard]

I would have expected the double in question in the opening post to be somewhere in that fuzzy zone between takeout and penalty.

 

Id usually prefer optionnal X (enough points to play in 2Nt but maybe no stoppers and 2/3 cards in their suits). But here we were playing standard so south 2nd X is 100% take-out there is no doubt about it. South could easily be void for the X.

 

North will be sitting most of the time with 4 spade and will at least consider passing.

 

Like ive said in my last post i think West is going to have a limit raise with 4 trumps the majority of times, East with a 7-9 hcp hand shouldnt be to fond of overcalling with only 4♠. So there is going to be a LOTT of 17 more often then 16 or 15. And passing with KT7x and 12 hcp facing a passed hand (and a limit raise by opps) is something i would not consider at all. If south bid 3something instead of X and the opps would compete to 3S would you X with the North hand ?

 

Also what do you think partner is going to lead if you pass the X of 2S ?

 

North has to do a safety bid & maybe south could have done the same by raising to 3D or passing. Maybe south was greedy hoping to make a 3level contract with such crappy values but North could easily be 3154 or even 3145 giving a fair shot to go plus on the deal.

 

Often in similar postion North is victim of sunk cost fallacy. Having the chance of an all pass north wasnt ready to conceed a minus score. Its the same when you make a penalty X and they run in a contract where you are not sure to set anymore, the fact that you had an easy plus score will clouded your judgement and you will X a 2nd time.