One from the BIL I'm not so sure about

[pclayton]

♠--♥AKx ♦KQJx ♣KJ9xxx

 

1♠ on left (precision), pass, 1N on right. Say you double.

 

Pass, pard bids 2♦, 2♠ on right.

 

Now what?

[rogerclee]

I would not be surprised if partner had 6 spades. At MP, I'd X again. At IMPs, I'm less comfortable about endplaying partner into playing 2Sx (he could have as few as 4 spades), and I might just bid 4D, though X'ing again is okay by me. 3C is awful.

 

Edit: 3D was stupid, changed to 4D.

[han]

so what do we need for 5C... the club queen? At first I thought I'd bid 4D but maybe I should bid the game and see if partner can make it.

[bhall]

I would cue 3♠, planning to remove 3N to 4♦. If partner passes that, he must hold a real dog. If, instead of 3N, partner bids 4♣, I will try 5♣. (I hope partner has his crystal ball with him.)

[inquiry]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=shdc&w=shdc&e=shakxdkqjxckj9xxx&s=shdc]399|300|Scoring: IMP

S = W = N = you

1S - P - 1N - X

P - 2D - 2S - ?

 

Hope this helps

[/hv]

 

If you cue bid 3♠ and it goes pass-3NT-pass back to you, what do you bid? If you bid 4♦ (after the cue-bid) is that forcing? I see one vote that partner can pass.

 

I will not vote, as i know the hand.

[han]

To me 3S followed by 4D is forcing.

[the hog]

"To me 3S followed by 4D is forcing."

 

For me also.

 

However I notice that no one is bidding 3D, and in fact one poster calls it "stupid". I am bidding 3D, and far from being stupid, this is a big bid and not just a raise as I suspect one or two posters think. If pd has nothing, 3D will be high enough.

[rogerclee]

"To me 3S followed by 4D is forcing."

 

For me also.

 

However I notice that no one is bidding 3D, and in fact one poster calls it "stupid". I am bidding 3D, and far from being stupid, this is a big bid and not just a raise as I suspect one or two posters think. If pd has nothing, 3D will be high enough.

Well, I initially didn't think it was stupid :). I think it's being unduly pessimistic. However, partner could even have a hand like Txxxxx xx xxx xx.

[Cascade]

If you cue bid 3♠ and it goes pass-3NT-pass back to you, what do you bid? If you bid 4♦ (after the cue-bid) is that forcing? I see one vote that partner can pass.

Pulling 3NT to 4minor by an unlimited hand should always be forcing.

[Free]

Dbl

[Gerben42]

Partner needs to have 6♠ for us not to have a fit. If I bid 3♠ then 4♦ I have learned nothing so why not 5♦ right away? But what I want is to find out if partner has something.

 

I bid 4♦.

[Guest Jlall]

You have 2 issues on this hand:

 

1) Do we belong in clubs or diamonds? Clubs could be better to avoid a situation where partner has 4 small diamonds and they lead spades at us, or to avoid a situation where they get a club ruff because we have more clubs than diamonds. Partner could also be 5332 where we have only 7 diamonds and we have 8 clubs.

 

2) Do we belong in game or slam? (lol ok I read the other posts, for most people it seems to be partscore or game... partscore is not an option to me though). I mean partscore could be the right spot but I couldn't dream of ever playing one. We need very little for game, and not so much for slam.

 

My first instinct was to just bid 4S which is very good for issue #2 but does not address issue #1 (which is the more important one) at all. The only way I can think to deal with issue #1 is to bid 3S and then pull 3N to 4C. If partner raises 4C to 5C, pass. If partner bids 4D, commit to diamonds and make a slam try. If partner bids 4N over 4C then we'll have to guess 5 of a minor (he could bid this way with 5341 or 5332 imo). By bidding this way we can get to clubs but we can also miss a slam. Given that some of my counterparts might be in partscore(!) that is not my primary concern though.

 

very interesting problem phil

[helene_t]

BTW, I notice in Ben's diagram that it was IMPs. Actually it was a teaching table. Had we been told to bid/play as if it were IMPs?

[mcphee]

I am rather sure I would have elected to simply overcall 2C but if forced to dble I would ask my self this question, what does 2D show? Now on this hand it sounds to me as though partner does happen to have some length in D, but he was forced to bid basically. I know he has less than 9 hcp for sure and quite likely less than 8 as they failed to jump a level. If I cue bid the opps suit now rather than make a simple raise (about 15-18) this show a hand evalued in the j/s range does it not and delivers 4 card support. That looks like what I have. I am not fond of a second dble of 2S as I am of the school that feels this hand does not have the defensive strength that might see partner converting to penalties. The 4th D reduces defensive hopes. I do not like making a bid that can place partner under pressure and the S void increases the chance that they might pass. I hate major accidents at imps.

[gwnn]

BTW, I notice in Ben's diagram that it was IMPs. Actually it was a teaching table. Had we been told to bid/play as if it were IMPs?

I think 90+% of posts ask for our bidding as in imp's. Bidding at MP is different, but it's also further from "normal bridge" than imp's.

[pclayton]

At the table I cue'd 3♠ and removed pard's 3N to 4♦. Pard passed (?!) which turned out to be a good move since 4♦ wasn't a big success. Pard held ♠9xxxx ♥xxx ♦98x ♣Ax.

 

Unlucky layout? Maybe.

 

After the hand I was wondering if steering the hand toward diamonds was a good idea. Surely we are getting a spade lead and our trumps are under immediate attack. I thought it was a little unlucky to catch pard with a 5=3=3=2 here. We still have some handling problems if pard has 4 diamonds after a spade lead, if he's lacking the ♦A-10, but frequently these issues can be overcome if our clubs can be set up.

 

I'd probably bid it the same way again.

[pclayton]

"To me 3S followed by 4D is forcing."

 

For me also.

 

However I notice that no one is bidding 3D, and in fact one poster calls it "stupid". I am bidding 3D, and far from being stupid, this is a big bid and not just a raise as I suspect one or two posters think. If pd has nothing, 3D will be high enough.

Well, I initially didn't think it was stupid B). I think it's being unduly pessimistic. However, partner could even have a hand like Txxxxx xx xxx xx.

Why are so many placing pard with 6 spades here? Is it really that likely that RHO is taking a free 2♠ with a doubleton?

 

I did mention the opponents played precision. I don't know if they played constructive raises or not (very common over a limited 1M), but even then, 1N frequently hides a fit.

[Guest Jlall]

Your example hand for pard is a good example of why 4C is better than 4D over 3N imo.

[Cascade]

If we are worried about partner not having four diamonds then it seems we need to be bidding our clubs at some point in the auction.

 

Of course there are problems with introducing clubs as partner will not necessarily know he needs to rebid his diamonds to confirm four!!!

 

The choices seem to be:

 

1. (1♠) Pass (1NT) 2♣...

 

2 (1♠ Pass (1NT) X

(Pass) 2♦ (2♠) 3♣...

 

3. (1♠ Pass (1NT) X

(Pass) 2♦ (2♠) 3♠

(Pass) 3NT (Pass) 4♣...

 

I think I like the first or second options best.

 

(Although I don't know on the second auction how later I am going to convince parter that I have four diamonds if that is relevent).

[mikestar]

I wouldn't double--too many problems unless partner has 5 hearts, may be control issues even then. So I'm realistically not looking for a heart fit or a marginal diamond fit. That being the case, the sensible bid would seem to be 2♣, looking to catch up later with a reverse in ♦ or a cue bid, depending on the auction.

 

Doubling first as if I had a strong one suiter isn't crazy, but it will often lose the diamonds when diamonds are right or get us to diamonds when diamonds are wrong. Starting with 2♣ should get us to diamonds if partner has at least four fair diamonds with club shortness and seldom otherwise.

[inquiry]

If we are worried about partner not having four diamonds then it seems we need to be bidding our clubs at some point in the auction.

 

Of course there are problems with introducing clubs as partner will not necessarily know he needs to rebid his diamonds to confirm four!!!

 

The choices seem to be:

 

1. (1♠) Pass (1NT) 2♣...

 

2 (1♠ Pass (1NT) X

  (Pass) 2♦ (2♠) 3♣...

 

3. (1♠ Pass (1NT) X

  (Pass) 2♦ (2♠) 3♠

  (Pass) 3NT (Pass) 4♣...

 

I think I like the first or second options best.

 

(Although I don't know on the second auction how later I am going to convince parter that I have four diamonds if that is relevent).

Presumably you choose double because you thought this hand was too strong to go via a simple 2♣ overcall. It also gives you a chance to find a heart fit should partner leap in hearts, or to find a diamond fit. I have to admit i would have just overcalled 2♣ planning on doubling 2♠ should that come back to me.

 

On your choice to double, after partner bids 2♦ there is a reasonable chance parnter has five spades and is bidding a three card suit (some say even six spades, but I too can't see the raise to 2♠ on a two card suit). So the best option after 2♠, imo, is 3♣. This shows a strong hand, this shows clubs. The down side is it might put you in the wrong strain should partner pass with five diamonds or something and no club fit. This auction (dbl then bid clubs) shows a strong hand of course.

 

The full hand, actually was the following.

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=skj8hqjt653d64c62&w=s96542h742d983ca4&e=shakxdkqjxckj9xxx&s=saqt73h8dat75cqt8]399|300|Scoring: IMP

As an aside, i was playing this hand as the 1♠ opener, in an event where the players chat with the kibitzers in private to share their thoughts about the hand. These things are played (at least by me) on the first and third sunday of each month at 15:30 EST. We are always looking for advanced to expert opponents (and partners) to come in and share their thoughts while they play with the kibitzers in the BIL. I am not sure what the other players were saying to the kibitzers during the hand, but eventually the entire thing gets posted to the BIL webpage along with the comments from all four players in a bridge movie. You can look brilliant or totally stupid for all time based upon what thoughts you share with the kibitizers. I certainly have looked both at times (I used discovery play to drop singleton king of trumps offsides missing four trumps once -- that was good, i explained once how parnter had to have such and such hand, only to be wildly wrong because i had assumed the acution was (pass)-pass-(2C*) *=precison, when it was really just pass-(2C*) -- that was bad.

[/hv]

 

As an example of how this works, as south in this diagram (north in reality, hands rotated), I opened 1♠, noting to the kibitzers... "inquiry->Kibitzers: in precison, an opening 1♠ bid is limited to 15 hcp or less. This is actually a better than minimum precision opening bid... of course, it could be better"

 

Following the double of 1NT, I noted..."inquiry->Kibitzers: i would have bid 2♦ if RHO had passed, here i will pass to figure out if partner has clubs and if LHO has spades.... i think they will bid ♥s here... if so i might balance back with 2NT "

 

When the 3♠ cue bid came around I offered up this bit of info... "inquiry->Kibitzers: some people play double of spade cuebid means lead my suit, others play don't lead it... i don't want to make it easy on West so i will pass" (here i thought WEST was going to have a difficult bid over 3♠, a double would allow him to pass.

 

When they bid 4♦, i probably made a mistake of passing, however, I thought I would get a chance to double something higher, as I noted.. "inquiry->Kibitzers: in theory 4!Ds is forcing, so no need to double 4!ds... lets see if they continue...." (IF I had doubled 3♠, and west had passed, east could have bid a non-forcing 4♦, as it turned out, WEST passed 4♦ anyway. So, sadly they didn't continue, on the plus side, they were down three. I made some comments during the play as well, including things like figuring out WEST's distribution to include 5♠, 2♥, 2♣ thus 3 trumps, etc.

 

Consider joining us, still looking for volunteers in the future. And of course, you can offer your services to the BIL on other dates/times. Just be aware, 1) no psyches, 2) play a vanilla system that the Beginners/intermediate players might be familiar with.

Edited February 5, 2008 by inquiry

[Cascade]

If we are worried about partner not having four diamonds then it seems we need to be bidding our clubs at some point in the auction.

 

Of course there are problems with introducing clubs as partner will not necessarily know he needs to rebid his diamonds to confirm four!!!

 

The choices seem to be:

 

1. (1♠) Pass (1NT) 2♣...

 

2 (1♠ Pass (1NT) X

  (Pass) 2♦ (2♠) 3♣...

 

3. (1♠ Pass (1NT) X

  (Pass) 2♦ (2♠) 3♠

  (Pass) 3NT (Pass) 4♣...

 

I think I like the first or second options best.

 

(Although I don't know on the second auction how later I am going to convince parter that I have four diamonds if that is relevent).

Presumably you choose double because you thought this hand was too strong to go via a simple 2♣ overcall. It also gives you a chance to find a heart fit should partner leap in hearts, or to find a diamond fit. I have to admit i would have just overcalled 2♣ planning on doubling 2♠ should that come back to me.

 

On your choice to double, after partner bids 2♦ there is a reasonable chance parnter has five spades and is bidding a three card suit (some say even six spades, but I too can't see the raise to 2♠ on a two card suit). So the best option after 2♠, imo, is 3♣. This shows a strong hand, this shows clubs. The down side is it might put you in the wrong strain should partner pass with five diamonds or something and no club fit. This auction (dbl then bid clubs) shows a strong hand of course.

I was more sitting on the fence saying that either the first or the second options were best and pointing out that there were problems with the second option - as you also pointed out you could easily end in clubs in a 6-1 or maybe even a 6-0 fit when you had an 8 or 9-card fit in diamonds and partner was very weak.