inquiry Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Normally (99+%) I sort by suits, I don't bother sorting by rank, I am satisfied if i get all my cards in the same suit close together. I do play from time to time by not sorting at all. Mostly as a goof. The last club I played at, I played with an 86 year old gentleman, and it seemed to amuse him that i didn't sort. I find not sorting by rank forces me to pay more attention to my spot cards. This works out better, because during the few seconds while fretting over which is low, I sometimes realize maybe I shouldn't play the normal card. But mostly i am just too lazy to bother sorting... On BBO, i always sort by suit and rank... so i guess i am not always lazy... :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 On BBO, i always sort by suit and rank... so i guess i am not always lazy... :o Sure you are. You're too lazy to modify the program to display the hand unsorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTired Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 A pair was once caught cheating. Their method of passing information was how they sorted their hand (I guess this is the ultimate form of slotting). As the method progressed, they passed more and more information. They were finally caught because, apparently, they raised suspicions because they spent so much time sorting their hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Suit and rank, out of habit. The order of the suits however is random. I tried not sorting my hand, works ok, but when you become dummy you have lots of work! So I changed to sorting the hand during the auction, and afterwards I shuffle it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Suit and rank, out of habit. The order of the suits however is random. I tried not sorting my hand, works ok, but when you become dummy you have lots of work! So I changed to sorting the hand during the auction, and afterwards I shuffle it. I did this for awhile but stopped, since I did not want my opponents to get paranoid about communicating things by the way I shuffle my cards during the play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 suit and rank, but differe from most, because I do HSDC. When I have singleton low heart, or can anticipate the play of the left card I try to cut my hand so the hearts are in the middle of the deck. Appart from that I do most of what cascae says as well. I am not very funny to kibitz since you can hardly see my cards more than a glance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 By suit only. I have no idea what order my suits are in because it varies, but I try red / black. That leaves 8 possibilities... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmat Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 I did this for awhile but stopped, since I did not want my opponents to get paranoid about communicating things by the way I shuffle my cards during the play. i just fold the cards up into a neat little stack and fan through them to find a card when i need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhall Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 By suit, alternating colors, but with longer suits to the outside and with the two"edge" cards always small (but not necessarily smallest). Very long suits are broken into two pieces, and may occupy both ends, e.g., 7222 may be sorted as 42223. The idea is to give card-clockers as little info as possible when one of my short suits is played. Before I adopted this policy, I often found my shortest suit at the right edge of my hand. Randomizing the small cards on the end often has a similar anti-clocking effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 by colour and suit, but which suit is where is random, just so that it is red/black/red/black or vice versa. Never by rank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Something I have never understood. Why is so much made of how much concentration people waste playing lots of methods (that, arguably, otherwise gain for the player) but nothing made of the concentration wasted by not sorting your cards, which gains nothing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finally17 Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Something I have never understood. Why is so much made of how much concentration people waste playing lots of methods (that, arguably, otherwise gain for the player) but nothing made of the concentration wasted by not sorting your cards, which gains nothing? They're completely different with respect to their taxation on the brain. Without knowing better, I would not be surprised if training yourself to play well having not sorted your suits leads to (on average) a better understanding of how to handle card combinations, a greater ability to picture opponents' hands based upon pips played, and a decreased likelihood to lose concentration in the hand, throwing cards without thinking; even possibly a decrease in revocation. All of these in the long run of course. You can lose concentration for a moment and still recover. Whereas playing lots of methods requires extreme dependence on long term memory, of not just one person, but two people. Long term memory, to varying degrees, fails in everyone at one time or another. In fact, not being dependent on complex methods and not sorting your cards could possibly stem from the same desire: to force yourself to be dependent on your wits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Something I have never understood. Why is so much made of how much concentration people waste playing lots of methods (that, arguably, otherwise gain for the player) but nothing made of the concentration wasted by not sorting your cards, which gains nothing? They're completely different with respect to their taxation on the brain. Without knowing better, I would not be surprised if training yourself to play well having not sorted your suits leads to (on average) a better understanding of how to handle card combinations, a greater ability to picture opponents' hands based upon pips played, and a decreased likelihood to lose concentration in the hand, throwing cards without thinking; even possibly a decrease in revocation. All of these in the long run of course. You can lose concentration for a moment and still recover. Whereas playing lots of methods requires extreme dependence on long term memory, of not just one person, but two people. Long term memory, to varying degrees, fails in everyone at one time or another. In fact, not being dependent on complex methods and not sorting your cards could possibly stem from the same desire: to force yourself to be dependent on your wits. Interesting it would seem like the opposite to me. If I didn't sort my hand or suits I'm sure I would be playing more randomly instead of thinking about exactly which card I want. You are pretty much saying you should make things hard on yourself to improve your game in the long run because you have to think harder? You could argue playing a wide variety of methods improves your bidding judgment in th long term in much the same way as well. I'm not making that argument, just saying it seems like a similar one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finally17 Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Interesting it would seem like the opposite to me. If I didn't sort my hand or suits I'm sure I would be playing more randomly instead of thinking about exactly which card I want. You are pretty much saying you should make things hard on yourself to improve your game in the long run because you have to think harder? You could argue playing a wide variety of methods improves your bidding judgment in th long term in much the same way as well. I'm not making that argument, just saying it seems like a similar one. I'm just saying that the forced focus might help. I'm not sure. When your hand is sorted out, AT84 is just that...people will often pull the small card or the high card with little thought. Even the best of players do this some %age of the time, I assume. When those 4 cards are spread through the hand, more careful consideration of which card is appropriate is required if you want to play well. Of course, not everyone would pay the careful attention required, but if they did, "I would not be surprised" if it had benefits such as those I listed. I would not either be surprised if it didn't. As for judgment with methods, I'm quite sure you're right. But the danger of forgetting some agreement that rarely comes up is always there and can totally sink a hand. I think that's why people like to KISS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Something I have never understood. Why is so much made of how much concentration people waste playing lots of methods (that, arguably, otherwise gain for the player) but nothing made of the concentration wasted by not sorting your cards, which gains nothing? It doesn't gain nothing. 1) Your opponents cannot tell anything by where you pull your cards.2) You can play your spot cards more randomly rather than robotically so good opps cannot exploit your natural patterns of play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goobers Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 How many people actually look where you pull your cards from? Anyway, I always hold my hand under the table, fully sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchiu Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Clocking bad or mediocre opponents is generally more useful than trusting that they did the right thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foo Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Something I have never understood. Why is so much made of how much concentration people waste playing lots of methods (that, arguably, otherwise gain for the player) but nothing made of the concentration wasted by not sorting your cards, which gains nothing? It doesn't gain nothing. 1) Your opponents cannot tell anything by where you pull your cards.2) You can play your spot cards more randomly rather than robotically so good opps cannot exploit your natural patterns of play. I agree completely with justin here. Some of the best advice I got many moons ago from folks like Hamman and Sontag was "learn to play w/o having to sort your cards." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Some of the best advice I got many moons ago from folks like Hamman and Sontag was "learn to play w/o having to sort your cards." They went up to you and said, "foo, there's really something you should do to take your bridge to the next level--be able to play without sorting your cards."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foo Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Some of the best advice I got many moons ago from folks like Hamman and Sontag was "learn to play w/o having to sort your cards." They went up to you and said, "foo, there's really something you should do to take your bridge to the next level--be able to play without sorting your cards."? No, I asked them and a few others about sorting their cards as in the topic of this thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Some of the best advice I got many moons ago from folks like Hamman and Sontag was "learn to play w/o having to sort your cards." They went up to you and said, "foo, there's really something you should do to take your bridge to the next level--be able to play without sorting your cards."? No, I asked them and a few others about sorting their cards as in the topic of this thread... Thank you for sharing the secret to playing like Hamman and Sontag. As usual, your post was enlightening, and I am a better player now than before I read your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foo Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Some of the best advice I got many moons ago from folks like Hamman and Sontag was "learn to play w/o having to sort your cards." They went up to you and said, "foo, there's really something you should do to take your bridge to the next level--be able to play without sorting your cards."? No, I asked them and a few others about sorting their cards as in the topic of this thread... Thank you for sharing the secret to playing like Hamman and Sontag. As usual, your post was enlightening, and I am a better player now than before I read your post. ?? Huh and WTF ?? This sounds like sarcasm? What did I say or do to elicit such sarcasm? I NEVER made such a claim or came anywhere close to such a statement with regards to "secrets". I simply pointed out that some very good WC players had told me that sorting one's cards can put one at a disadvantage, as justin also pointed out; and that they had also said being able to play w/o sorting one's cards was an advantage. (I believe their point was that superior visualization, which is required to play w/o sorting one's cards, =is= one of the secrets to playing better.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Actually, I have also heard (from a top player) about how Hamman has perfected randomizing his spot plays, partly by not sorting his hand. (In any case he doesn't believe in signaling much.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossoneri Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 Not too sure how you would classify mine.... I usually sort by suits first, then maybe bid with a few cards not in rank order, but the order freak in me eventually ends up getting the cards sorted in rank order. Thing is, I don't sort it SHCD, I just make it such that it's alternating black and red suits and I leave it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossoneri Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 I simply pointed out that some very good WC players had told me that sorting one's cards can put one at a disadvantage, as justin also pointed out; and that they had also said being able to play w/o sorting one's cards was an advantage. (I believe their point was that superior visualization, which is required to play w/o sorting one's cards, =is= one of the secrets to playing better.) I don't quite get this, it would seem more intuitively correct to spend less energy sorting as compared to the amount of brain power needed to visualize. My habit is that I memorise the key features of my hand (like hcp, distribution, impt spot cards etc.) so that I don't really look at my hand during bidding. Would you call this visualisation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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