No Fit, But With Values

[cnszsun]

[hv=d=s&v=e&s=sxxhxxdk1098xcaqjx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

ps-(2♠)-3♥-(ps)

?[/hv]

I would bid 4♥, and just want to know if it's obvious or close.

[gwnn]

Pretty much very obvious:

 

-pass looks very very silly when we have this hand it just feels wrong...

-partner looks like he's got 3 spades, so he rates to have nice values in there, including a decent 6 card suit and some values in the minors - basically we only need ONE minor suit A/K and game starts to look nicely.

-if you don't bid 4♥ on this, partner will have an enormously hard time to enter the auction... Should he x and hearts or bid 4♥ directly on moderate 11 counts like xxx AJTxxx AQ xx? That's not even a 3♥ overcall!

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

The alternative would be pass.

 

To a certain degree it depends on your min.

requirements for a 3H call.

 

I think I would bid 4H, but I think also, that

it is close, ... and since we are green, it is not

the end of the world, if you miss a making

game, make it red vs ?, and you should bid

game, at least you have the excuse

"We were Red playing IMPs.".

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Should he x and hearts or bid 4♥ directly on moderate 11 counts like xxx AJTxxx AQ xx? That's not even a 3♥ overcall!

It is, at least for me, and it is

not even min.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gwnn]

<snip>

Should he x and hearts or bid 4♥ directly on moderate 11 counts like xxx AJTxxx AQ xx? That's not even a 3♥ overcall!

It is, at least for me, and it is

not even min.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

what's your minimum 3♥ overcall with 3 spades in hand and opposite a passed pard?

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Should he x and hearts or bid 4♥ directly on moderate 11 counts like xxx AJTxxx AQ xx? That's not even a 3♥ overcall!

It is, at least for me, and it is

not even min.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

what's your minimum 3♥ overcall with 3 spades in hand and opposite a passed pard?

Hi,

 

... I have to think about it a little bit.

But a min. opener with 6 hearts would do,

maybe something like xxx AQxxxx Axx x.

 

But it is not clear, that partner has 3 spades.

Just because 2S did not get raised to 3S,

does not mean the opponents dont have a

9 card fit. Some times the weak two is based

on a 7 carder, and sometimes openers partner

is looking at a 4333 shape.

 

And it does not matter much, if partner is a passed

hand. Sometimes the 3H bid prepares a sac. against

their 4S.

3H is not weak a bid, but the purpose of the bid is

not only to find a game for our own, but to fight for the

part score, and finding a sacrifice against their game.

 

Of course it also depends on your opening style in first

seat.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gwnn]

OK now that you've carefully constructed basically the only hand that partner may have and game is not 50+% (which you yourself consider a bare minimum), what did you accomplish? Do you really think pass vs 4H is close? My basic point was that 4♥ rates to be a good contract opposite even bare minimums (or even hands on which not all would even have bid 3♥!) in the context of the auction (and yes pd could have between 0 and 5 spades but the median is 3).

[helene_t]

4♥ or 3♠, I don't really care. No offense to anyone but I think pass is criminal. P asked you to cooperate in game exploration and you have a maximum pass, in fact I might have opened your hand in some partnerships. And you don't even have any spade honors to devalue due to the preempt.

[hrothgar]

I'm too strong not to take some kind of action.

 

I have a solid 10 count. While I definitely agree with the initial pass playing 2/1, I would happily open playing strong club. Pass 3♥ is too much opf a position.

 

For what its worth, while I am happy to make a forward going bid, I'm not sure whether this should be 3♠ or 4♥... If partner has a Spade stopper 3N might be a much better contract.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

First of all, I did achieve nothing, and it did not take me

long to get this hand, I was just asking my self, what does

a min. opener look like for me.

I dont enter arguments, which are based on randomly

constructed hands, ... you asked me to construct one.

 

Second, we are currently just discussing hands, which have

made the 3H bid with a 6 carder.

Quite often the bid will be made on 5 carders, i.e. we dont

even have the gurantee of a fit.

And depending on the preemptive agreements of the opponents,

they may just waiting to kill you in 4H, and this can happen

faster than you may believe, especially if you happen to play a

contract in a 5-2 fit.

 

As I have said, it depends on the min. requirements for 3H and

for 4H. Partner can and will expect, that we hold a arbitary 8

count, and our hands is not a whole lot stronger than what partner

can expect.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[brianshark]

I can't see myself bidding anything other than 3♠.

[whereagles]

Good hand for transfer advances: 3♠, showing clubs. Now if pard bids 3NT, you pass. If he bids something else, bid 4♥.

[Guest Jlall]

I would bid 3S planning to pass 3N. I think this auction is a terrible auction for transfer advances since you need to be able to ask for a stopper below 3N.

[ArtK78]

Not that I play transfer advances in this auction, but I doubt that anyone does. 3♠ and 3NT must have their usual non-transfer meanings.

[han]

I would also bid 3S, why pick the contract if you can involve partner?

[whereagles]

I think this auction is a terrible auction for transfer advances since you need to be able to ask for a stopper below 3N.

If you're NOT playing TAs, there's the risk pard will take 3♠ as a heart cue. Ok, maybe that won't happen if you have your agreements homework done, but that's not always the case. With TAs, a 3♠ bid will meet with pard's 3NT if he has a stop and you got problem solved. If he doesn't have the stop, you can now bid 4♥ with more confidence.

 

I mean.. seems simple to me.

[whereagles]

Not that I play transfer advances in this auction, but I doubt that anyone does.  3♠ and 3NT must have their usual non-transfer meanings.

ArtK, the higher pard's overcall is, the more important transfer advances become because bidding space is more scarce. In fact, they should be ON regardless of the level of overcall. In this case,

 

(2♠) 3♥ (pass) ??

 

3♠ = clubs, but needn't be 5 of them if willing to play 3NT

3NT = nat

4♣ = diams, wide range of hands

4♦ = good heart raise

4♥ = so-so heart raise

 

Ofc, you can manufacture a hand that doesn't fit this scheme well.. lol, say,

 

xxx xx AKQxx Kxx

[mr1303]

Given I passed first up, the chances of me having a slam try here are negligible, so 3S should be search for the best game, be it 3NT, 4H or perhaps 5 of a minor.

 

Even if I were unpassed, it is 100% clear to me that 3S should FIRSTLY be looking for the best game. If it turns out to be a slam try, then this should be made clear by later bidding. E.g. pulling 3NT to 4 of a minor or 4H after bidding 3S

[jdonn]

I think this auction is a terrible auction for transfer advances since you need to be able to ask for a stopper below 3N.

If you're NOT playing TAs, there's the risk pard will take 3♠ as a heart cue. Ok, maybe that won't happen if you have your agreements homework done, but that's not always the case. With TAs, a 3♠ bid will meet with pard's 3NT if he has a stop and you got problem solved. If he doesn't have the stop, you can now bid 4♥ with more confidence.

 

I mean.. seems simple to me.

Good point. The advantage to agreeing to play transfer advances here is you then have an agreement, whereas if you don't agree to play transfer advances you might not have an agreement at all. Because obviously you are not allowed to have discussed the auction unless you are playing transfer advances :)

[Guest Jlall]

3S could be a slam try for hearts of course, but if you bid over partners 3N bid he will know what is going on. Below-3N-cuebids holding the first priority of being a stopper ask is not a new concept, it is standard.

[han]

Not that I play transfer advances in this auction, but I doubt that anyone does.  3♠ and 3NT must have their usual non-transfer meanings.

ArtK, the higher pard's overcall is, the more important transfer advances become because bidding space is more scarce. In fact, they should be ON regardless of the level of overcall. In this case,

 

(2♠) 3♥ (pass) ??

 

3♠ = clubs, but needn't be 5 of them if willing to play 3NT

3NT = nat

4♣ = diams, wide range of hands

4♦ = good heart raise

4♥ = so-so heart raise

 

Ofc, you can manufacture a hand that doesn't fit this scheme well.. lol, say,

 

xxx xx AKQxx Kxx

Maybe better maybe worse:

 

3S = old fashioned 3S, most likely a hand looking for 3NT.

3NT = old fashioned 3NT, suggesting to play there.

4C = ♦, forcing

4D = ♥, forcing

4H = ♣, forcing

 

3S followed by pulling 3NT to 4C would show a more flexible hand.

[helene_t]

Looks good, Han. You can show a mild slam invite for hearts via 3♠ or you can insist on the 5-level via 4♦. Btw, what would be the difference between 4♣ followed by 4♥ and 3♠ followed by 4♦? Both sound as diamonds with heart tolerance.

[whereagles]

Han, I know what you mean, and it makes sense. However, it breaks the mnemonic of TAs, which is "From cue up to support -1 = transfer, NTs excluded," so that might generate problems.

[han]

Looks good, Han. You can show a mild slam invite for hearts via 3♠ or you can insist on the 5-level via 4♦. Btw, what would be the difference between 4♣ followed by 4♥ and 3♠ followed by 4♦? Both sound as diamonds with heart tolerance.

I don't know, you tell me!

 

Without further thought I'd play 4C followed by 4H is choice of games, 3S followed by 4D (only over 3NT!) is a slam try in hearts.

 

I have never played this but I've noticed over the years that rotating the meaning of the bids at the 4-level often works well on the problems posted here. There are some disadvantages though, and of course it adds to the memory load (which is why I don't play it).

[Guest Jlall]

Looks good, Han. You can show a mild slam invite for hearts via 3♠ or you can insist on the 5-level via 4♦. Btw, what would be the difference between 4♣ followed by 4♥ and 3♠ followed by 4♦? Both sound as diamonds with heart tolerance.

I don't know, you tell me!

 

Without further thought I'd play 4C followed by 4H is choice of games, 3S followed by 4D (only over 3NT!) is a slam try in hearts.

 

I have never played this but I've noticed over the years that rotating the meaning of the bids at the 4-level often works well on the problems posted here. There are some disadvantages though, and of course it adds to the memory load (which is why I don't play it).

I dont think the scheme is playable because 4H would have to be forcing (otherwise you have no forcing club bid). If you play this you cannot play 4H. I think that not being able to show clubs, have partner rebid hearts, and pass is not really playable.