han Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I had this hand in bidding practice: [hv=d=s&s=saqxhxdakqjxxca10x]133|100|[/hv] Our auction was: 1D - 1S3C - 4C4S - 5C5D - pass Is this how you would have bid the hand too? Is 4S clearly natural? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I had this hand in bidding practice: [hv=d=s&s=saqxhxdakqjxxca10x]133|100|[/hv] Our auction was: 1D - 1S3C - 4C4S - 5C5D - pass Is this how you would have bid the hand too? Is 4S clearly natural? Since you ask, no! We would have used 1D 1S 2NT as an artificial game force and thus would not have to resort to manufacturing bids in fake suits. This appears to be a real problem in a 2/1 system unless you have some gadget available. I would have said C was the agreed suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Agree with Ron. Btw responder rates not to have 5 spades, otherwise he would hardly have supported clubs directly. But ok, 4♠ in a 4-3 fit may still be worth a proposal.I would take 4♠ as a cuebid, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 This is a reasonable auction. If I did not bid it this way, the only other option is to open 2♣ (which I believe would not be a majority expert view) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Oh, I guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't wondering how you would bid it in a strong club system or in a system where you have a neat gadget available for this kind of hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I really don't think 4♠ should be a cuebid here. Surely with a hand that wants to cue opener can find a red suit to cue over 4♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I really don't think 4♠ should be a cuebid here. Surely with a hand that wants to cue opener can find a red suit to cue over 4♣. Isn't 4♦ clearly natural? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 If I invent a suit to JS into, I always correct to my original suit at the first possibility, so I would rebid 4♦ to stop partner from supporting clubs. That said, I think 4♠ is clearly natural, usually showing 3154 (possibly 3055 and 3064). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I really don't think 4♠ should be a cuebid here. Surely with a hand that wants to cue opener can find a red suit to cue over 4♣. Isn't 4♦ clearly natural? Yes it is. Thatll teach me to post when drinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I really don't think 4♠ should be a cuebid here. Surely with a hand that wants to cue opener can find a red suit to cue over 4♣. Isn't 4♦ clearly natural? So what do you think Josh, is 4S a cuebid denying a heart cue? Is it natural? Does it guarantee that clubs is an honest suit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Matt and I have a nice structure here. We can show a hand with this strength, 6 good diamonds and 3 spades. Not playing anything fancy, I think 4♠ is real support and makes 3♣ suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I really don't think 4♠ should be a cuebid here. Surely with a hand that wants to cue opener can find a red suit to cue over 4♣. Isn't 4♦ clearly natural? So what do you think Josh, is 4S a cuebid denying a heart cue? Is it natural? Does it guarantee that clubs is an honest suit? I think it's a cuebid and that you are compelled to bid 4♦. But I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 wtf, 4S is clearly natural. This auction comes up all the time. If your next bid after you JS is partners first bid suit you are trying to play there. It is silly to play it as a cuebid when this is a suit you can easily have a 5-3 fit in, when you could have a 4-3 fit in clubs!! That being said, your hand is very good for this auction and you could easily miss a slam by bidding this way pretty easily. Bidding keycard then 6D actually has a lot of appeal to me even though it is pretty weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 That being said, your hand is very good for this auction and you could easily miss a slam by bidding this way pretty easily. Bidding keycard then 6D actually has a lot of appeal to me even though it is pretty weird. Yup. Partner had K10xx xx xx Kxxxx, 6D is very good and partner isn't bidding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 That being said, your hand is very good for this auction and you could easily miss a slam by bidding this way pretty easily. Bidding keycard then 6D actually has a lot of appeal to me even though it is pretty weird. Yup. Partner had K10xx xx xx Kxxxx, 6D is very good and partner isn't bidding it. obv I am the best EVA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 That being said, your hand is very good for this auction and you could easily miss a slam by bidding this way pretty easily. Bidding keycard then 6D actually has a lot of appeal to me even though it is pretty weird. Yup. Partner had K10xx xx xx Kxxxx, 6D is very good and partner isn't bidding it. obv I am the best EVA that would be http://tinyurl.com/gv9p4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Im quite fond of fake jump-shifts (even in 3/2 cards majors). They usually are the cheapest forcing bid available so it make sense to used them to the maximum. However you need some common sense agreement to not go ashtray. When to make JS in a fragment1-GF 3 cards raises (are the more frequent) so its clear that 4S should be natural.2- Long solid suits 3- balance hand with a wide open doubleton. What i suggest is that any bypass of 3Nt is showing a raise or tolerance in partner 1st suit just a fit in 2nd suit isnt enough. 1D-----1S3C-----??? 3D im stuck, no h stoppers or fit in m without D tol3H nat3S nat3Nt nat4C clubs+ D tolerance 1S-----1Nt3D-----??? 3H im stuck3S = H3Nt nat4C+= D fit +S tol Playing standard method bypassing 3Nt without spades tol & even with 5 cards support for partner 2nd suit often lead to terrible results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Hi, #1 3C is ok, and most likely your onlygame forcing bid. #2 4S is certainly a cue bid, showing the Ace or the King, so to answer your question, no it is not natural, and not a suggestion to play 4SPartner could / should have bid 3H or 3S, if he had any interest in 3 card spade support #3 I think, I would have prefered to bid4D instead of 4S With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I really don't think 4♠ should be a cuebid here. Surely with a hand that wants to cue opener can find a red suit to cue over 4♣. Isn't 4♦ clearly natural? No, ... at least not 100%.It could be intended as a cue bid for clubs, after all we have found a fit a fit.But of course 4D shows a strong suit, callit source of tricks, but the bid bid need notbe based a 6 carder. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I'm very unfond (is that a word) of fake jumpshifts so I try to get anyone who I can convince to play some gadget that avoids the whole issue (and at hardly any cost too!). The hand is a bit light for me to open 2♣, so your hand type is basically shoved under the carpet in anything close to "standard". So now that you ask, this is probably how you bid the hand in standard. Lose 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 The consensus seems to be that over 4C:- 4S is natural, showing three-card support and perhaps not real clubs- 4D is natural, showing a strong one-suiter and not real clubs That seems reasonable, but it's not terribly satisfactory if you happen to have clubs and want to make a slam try. Would 4H promise a heart control? If so, what do you do when you don't have one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 The consensus seems to be that over 4C:- 4S is natural, showing three-card support and perhaps not real clubs- 4D is natural, showing a strong one-suiter and not real clubs That seems reasonable, but it's not terribly satisfactory if you happen to have clubs and want to make a slam try. Would 4H promise a heart control? If so, what do you do when you don't have one? If you dont have a clear bid, you need to improvise. Usually you will bid 4D, this bid shows a strong suit, and if you happen to play 4D as one-suiter, than partner is expected to make a cue bid on the basis that diamonds are agreed. And partner should be able to make at leastone cue bid, after all 4C is, compared to 5C,a forward going bid. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 The consensus seems to be that over 4C:- 4S is natural, showing three-card support and perhaps not real clubs- 4D is natural, showing a strong one-suiter and not real clubs That seems reasonable, but it's not terribly satisfactory if you happen to have clubs and want to make a slam try. Would 4H promise a heart control? If so, what do you do when you don't have one? If you don't have a heart control you are very unlikely to have a hand that is too big to just bid 5C. I mean, really, think how big your hand would need to be. You have already jumpshifted, and you have xx in hearts or something. If you do happen to have the complete nuts your hand will probably be good enough to know that partner (who's 4C bid will not be a terrible hand for slam) must have one. Yes, this can cause problems, but from my point of view it is our of NECESSITY that 4S and 4D are natural, and that these bids are far more important than if you have some rare hand that is huge even in context of a jumpshift but that has no heart control. If you are worried that much about it and you are playing with a regular partner you can use 4N in these auctions as a slam try rather than keycard and just give up on keycard. A lot of good partnerships do that in minor suit slam auctions where there is no room to jump to 4N. oh and btw (warm+fuzzy moment) I really enjoy your posts and hope you continue to post a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 oh and btw (warm+fuzzy moment) I really enjoy your posts and hope you continue to post a lot. Thanks - warm glow duly received. It's nice to have found somewhere where the discussion is both of a good standard and free of personal attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 best EVA = Expert View After ? Yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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