mikegill Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=sakxxhaqjxxdxckt9&s=sqxxhktxxxdcaxxxx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv] 1♦ - X - 3♦ - 4♥5♦ - 5♥ - all pass You are playing ELC, so don't assign blame to North for the X, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I might be missing something, but I don't understand what ELC has to do with doubling or not doubling on the North hand. I would have overcalled 1♥, which on the actual hand allows South to bid 4♦, possibly we could bid a slam now. On the actual auction, North must have a reason to bid 5/5 - i.e. he does not have a 4414 13 count. It is reasonable IMO for South to bid a 6th heart now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 If I had to blame anyone, it is North. North has much better than a typical takeout double of 1♦ and his partner jumped to game in hearts over 3♦. South cannot bid a slam on his own. And a cue bid by South over 3♦ is out of the question, as it would ask North to pick a major. This is truly a very tough problem. North is the only one who has a chance to get it right, so I assign most of the blame to North. But I suspect that I would have duplicated his actions. I don't see why South should hang his partner for competing to the five level over 5♦. The 5 over 5 bid does not give South enough reason to bid again. I agree that ELC has nothing to do with this problem. North has a clear double over 1♦. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 looks fine to me. stiff opp void is sick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I don't think I would have reached this slam after starting with double. There is a chance after a 1♥ overcall since south can splinter or bid 4♦ over 3♦ or something, but I'd be lying if I said I was confident I'd bid it then either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilgan Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Bidding seems fine up until the 5♦ bid. If you want to get to slam on this hand (imo) you have to pass/pull to 5♥ to show some sort of slam interest. Not sure if that is the correct bid, but starting with a double that seems the only route there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Hi, the opponents. I think South can make a stronger move with 4D, but making a cue bid, when the trump suit is not clear is always dangerous.And if 4D leads to a catastroph, I am the first toblame South for making such a problematic bid. South would bid 4H without the Ace of hearts, andthats why North cant bid more, but 5H is certainlyno invitation to bid on. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I consider 4H to be an underbid. I would jump to 4H with QxxKTxxxAxxxx So the south hand is 1 trick + 1 control stronger. Its clearly deserve a 4D bid (with a correction to 5C over 4S to show H+C slammish. Of course if you play that 4D 100% guarranted both maj you are stucked. I would have overcall 1H but i have no problem with X. But after the X an a proper 4D its hard to miss the slam Ps does any1 play 4C here as forcing ? Im wondering because the 4C as natural non-forcing rarely come-up and isnt super useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 If anything North could have bid 6 instead of 5 but I don't really blame anyone. After opps open at the 1-level, reaching slam is not our primary objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 No charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 btw, I think your X is 100 % correct, I would never risk playing 1H when cold for 4S etc. This hand is way too good to overcall 1H and you have perfect Xing shape, what is the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 btw, I think your X is 100 % correct, I would never risk playing 1H when cold for 4S etc. This hand is way too good to overcall 1H and you have perfect Xing shape, what is the problem? I prefer to overcall. But it's borderline. Don't think there's a problem with either action - it's just down to personal preferences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 OK but what do you bid over 2♣? 2♥ doesn't really promise this much, does it? 3♥ should show a one suited hearts hand shouldn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 If I had to blame anyone, it would be North for not initiating a pass-and-pull sequence, since this is clearly a forcing pass auction. I would be playing in 5 hearts, though, and be kicking myself and writing it up as a problem for posters to tear me apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 If I had to blame anyone, it would be North for not initiating a pass-and-pull sequence, since this is clearly a forcing pass auction. I would be playing in 5 hearts, though, and be kicking myself and writing it up as a problem for posters to tear me apart. This is clearly NOT a forcing pass auction, as far as I'm concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 btw, I think your X is 100 % correct, I would never risk playing 1H when cold for 4S etc. This hand is way too good to overcall 1H and you have perfect Xing shape, what is the problem? I prefer to overcall. But it's borderline. Don't think there's a problem with either action - it's just down to personal preferences. I just don't get it, do you think you are overbidding if you double first and later bid 2H? It seems to me like you have perfect shape and values for Xing, you are not concerned with any followups ever, and can much more easily get to non-heart games by Xing immediately, you can get to slam easier by Xing, and you even rate to stop lower if you start with a double than 1H because if you overcall 1H and the opps bid you are going to keep bidding forever. I mean imagine it goes 1D 1H 3D p p X p 3H. Would you pass? Maybe, but you could be missing a game since you would probably be reopening X on AQxx AKxxx x Qxx as well. If you bid you could just be ridiculously high. By overcalling 1H you made it tough to STOP low. And the risk of playing in 1H opposite Qxxxx x Qxxx xxx or something is very real as well. I'm all for overcalling heavy on a hand like Qx KQJxx KQxx AJ where you have a lot of HCP but Xing creates a lot of problems for you, but here I don't see why doubling will create any problems at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 If I had to blame anyone, it would be North for not initiating a pass-and-pull sequence, since this is clearly a forcing pass auction. I would be playing in 5 hearts, though, and be kicking myself and writing it up as a problem for posters to tear me apart. This is clearly NOT a forcing pass auction, as far as I'm concerned. agree totally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 If I had to blame anyone, it would be North for not initiating a pass-and-pull sequence, since this is clearly a forcing pass auction. I would be playing in 5 hearts, though, and be kicking myself and writing it up as a problem for posters to tear me apart. This is clearly NOT a forcing pass auction, as far as I'm concerned. agree totally Since I'm disagreeing with two people who both have a better understanding of bridge, then I am willing to concede that I am probably wrong. Here's why I believe this is a forcing pass auction, however: 1) although it was not stated in the problem, 1♦-(X) -3♦ is a preemptive raise for most people, done on very light values typically NV 2) Given that the opponents are preempting, my partner is NOT preempting by bidding 4♥. He is bidding to make. 3) If my partner is bidding game to make, then we are committed to either doubling them or bidding on when they bid over our (making) game. I am, of course, perfectly willing to listen to where I've got this wrong should anyone be so kind as to point it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 This is clearly NOT a forcing pass auction, as far as I'm concerned.agree totally So one simply forcing pass rule: "We freely bid game and they defend" does not apply here because....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 This is clearly NOT a forcing pass auction, as far as I'm concerned.agree totally So one simply forcing pass rule: "We freely bid game and they defend" does not apply here because....? ... we bid game on distribution (trump length in particular), not brute force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 3) If my partner is bidding game to make, then we are committed to either doubling them or bidding on when they bid over our (making) game. Hi, I was with you until this point. 4H is a bid that can be made on something like xx KQJxx xxx Kxx or J QJxxx xx Kxxxx, I would bid it hoping to make (but aware that I might not make) because I have 5 good hearts and 3 diamonds, and I would expect partner to pass 3H on a lot of hands that make game cold. However, these hands don't have enough tricks on defense to X, and they are not hands I would want partner Xing 5D with if he had a random takeout X that didn't want to encourage a 5H bid. They are also not hands I would be willing to committ to bidding 5H with myself. It could still be their hand once they bid 5D, even though I was bidding 4H based on the thinking that I'd have a good shot to make it. Basically both sides may have distribution, and on hands like this where you don't know who ownership of the deal belongs to you shouldn't be forced to double them if you don't want to bid on to the 5 level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 This is clearly NOT a forcing pass auction, as far as I'm concerned.agree totally So one simply forcing pass rule: "We freely bid game and they defend" does not apply here because....? I think this is a horrible rule. That would make an auction like 1S p 2S 3H 4S 5H a forcing pass auction as well. Bridge is a competitive game and when both sides have a big fit you don't want to play a double or bid game, sometimes you have bid your hands aggressively because of your shape and done your job in pushing them to the 5 level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Why was there no alert on 3♦? We hold 25 HCP, opener should have 12+ HCP, so the 3♦ bid has 3- HCP. It should have been alerted. What would north bid holding an 12 HCP 4414 shape? If this would be a dbl too, then north should bid 6♥ because he has 5 HCP more than minimum and an extra trump. Maybe my bidding methods need improvement, but my partner volunteered to jump to game. Why should he preempt over opps preemptive 3♦? We are NV and the scoring method is MP. So I do expect some defense from him for that 4♥ bid. I think most pickup partnerships would see that as a forcing pass situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Why was there no alert on 3♦? We hold 25 HCP, opener should have 12+ HCP, so the 3♦ bid has 3- HCP. It should have been alerted. I don't understand this comment. what exactly do you think 3♦ promises, if unalerted? a limit raise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Why was there no alert on 3♦? We hold 25 HCP, opener should have 12+ HCP, so the 3♦ bid has 3- HCP. It should have been alerted. Hi, I don't know what country you're from but in the ACBL at least preemptive jumps are not alertable after an overcall or X. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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