They A Fit, We A Fit

[han]

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=skjxxhd10xxxxca9xx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

(2H)-Dbl - (5H) - p

(p) - Dbl - (p) - ??

[655321]

Why did we not double on our previous turn?

[han]

Well, if you prefer to double on the previous turn that's fine, I didn't. I don't think that partner will ever act over that double. If partner has a fairly minimum hand then I'm fine defending 5H undoubled.

[655321]

Well, if you prefer to double on the previous turn that's fine, I didn't. I don't think that partner will ever act over that double. If partner has a fairly minimum hand then I'm fine defending 5H undoubled.

I agree that partner was likely to pass if we doubled last round. But I expect to beat 5♥ by 2 or 3 tricks.

 

If RHO had bid 4♥ I would have bid 4♠.    So it is inconsistent for me to pass 5♥, knowing that partner will usually pass it out undoubled.

[Rebound]

FWIW I agree with pass previously and I bid 5♠ now.

[dake50]

6D. If I guess high I go for tops.

[Guest Jlall]

Did you mean your pass of 5H as forcing or something? Can't see passing over that otherwise.

[Codo]

I try 5 NT or is this just wishful thinking that this is pick a slam?

 

I don´t know if slam has a good chance, but I like to bid one if the opps bid like this in my void suit.

[Cascade]

Did you mean your pass of 5H as forcing or something? Can't see passing over that otherwise.

What is the minimum you would double with?

[whereagles]

Considering my previous pass, I have a monster. 5NT pick-a-slam for me :)

[helene_t]

Would have bid something on the previous round but not sure what. Probably 5♠. 5N now, 6♦ could easily be better of course.

[Apollo81]

5N pick a slam?

 

Not clear to me whether pass should be forcing or not on previous round.

[pclayton]

5N. They are probably taking the sac.

[han]

Did you mean your pass of 5H as forcing or something? Can't see passing over that otherwise.

No but I expected partner to double again in which case I thought I didn't want to defend. I decided to give up on a possible small penalty by risking this to be passed out.

[bid_em_up]

Put me down for 5N also.

[jdonn]

I'll try 6♥. Who knows maybe this gets me the 7 level save by rho.

[Guest Jlall]

I'll try 6♥. Who knows maybe this gets me the 7 level save by rho.

?? Partner can't bid 6m over this lol

[fred]

I think there are 3 questions:

 

1) If Pass is not forcing what should you do?

 

2) If Pass is forcing what should you do?

 

3) Should Pass be forcing?

 

Question 1 is easy to answer because it has no answer. If Pass is non-forcing then you should not have passed the first time.

 

Question 3 is not so hard either. Even though nowadays it is fashionable for experts to say "I play fewer forcing Passes than anyone I know", I think most would agree that it makes sense to play Pass as forcing here.

 

For sure that agreement will endplay you into choosing between letting them make a redoubled contract and going for a massive number on occasion but:

 

- That won't happen very often

 

- In real life 5H is almost always a statement that you can make something.

 

- Having the agreement that Pass is forcing will frequently gain

 

- When an opponent has a hand in which he can set you up in this manner, he will usually not bid 5H. For one thing, it probably won't occur to him to bid 5H. Even if it does occur to him, he may want to know if you play Pass as forcing or not before he makes that call, and this is not the sort of question you should be asking :o

 

Question 2 is the hardest one because, in order to answer it, you need to think about what various sequences would suggest. For example:

 

- bidding a suit instead of Passing

- bidding 5NT instead of Passing

- doubling the first time

- passing and pulling to a suit (does it matter which suit?)

- passing and pulling to 5NT

 

I suppose if a partnership were really serious about bridge they would even talk about the difference between the direct and indirect cuebid, direct and indirect pull to 5NT followed by various actions, and whether or not a jump to 6S means anything.

 

If you don't feel like going into that much detail (I wouldn't blame you!) then ask yourself this:

 

Why did I Pass the first time with this hand if I am going to bid now? Here are 2 possible answers:

 

- Passing the first time was a mistake

- Because I have a good idea of what Pass and pull (versus immediate bid) means

 

My personal opinion is that it is correct to make a (forcing) Pass the first time because the primary message of this call is:

 

I am not sure if we should be defending or not

 

(and to me that is an appropraite message to deliver with this particular hand).

 

That being the case you should Pass partner's DBL - you already invited him to bid and he has declined. You should abide by his decision.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Edited January 30, 2008 by fred

[jdonn]

I'll try 6♥. Who knows maybe this gets me the 7 level save by rho.

?? Partner can't bid 6m over this lol

You mean I might play in SPADES??? Oh god!

[han]

This has been very interesting, thanks for the replies.

 

I passed and pulled to 5NT. Partner bid 6C which had chances but went down. 5HX would have been down a couple.

 

I was playing with gwnn and we have few agreements. Forcing passes make a lot of sense to me, but I didn't assume that pass was forcing. I was pretty sure that gwnn would reopen though, but seems that my choices were inconsistent.

[han]

Partner had a 3-2-4-4 17-count btw, spades wasn't very good.

[Patapon]

To me the pass isn't forcing.

If the pass is forcing,does it mean I should double with xxxx, x,xxxx,xxxx ?

Then if my opponent knows this he could bid 5H when he thinks he makes this contract so that is doubled each time.

I understand the logic that makes you want to play this auction forcing but for practical purpose it seems wrong.

I don’t want to” build “my system on a practical position of the game.

[jdonn]

Partner had a 3-2-4-4 17-count btw, spades wasn't very good.

It's ok they bid 7♥ :o

 

I don't want to seem like sour grapes since I don't know his hand, and slam in a minor apparently went down anyway. But it seems to me most 3244 17 counts would just want to pass it out (if your pass was nonforcing) and accept their small plus, rather than invite partner to pull to what is almost sure to be a minus.

[MFA]

If the pass is forcing,does it mean I should double with xxxx, x,xxxx,xxxx ?

Yes, this is a mandatory double if playing forcing pass. Passing would show values.

 

jdonn:

But it seems to me most 3244 17 counts would just want to pass it out (if your pass was nonforcing) and accept their small plus, rather than invite partner to pull to what is almost sure to be a minus.

 

Something is very odd here.

 

If we play forcing pass, responder can

- pass over 5♥, inviting a bid.

- double 5♥ noninviting, expecting to play 5♥X.

This is all fine.

 

But without forcing pass, responder can

- double 5♥, inviting a bid

- pass NF with a bad hand, but perhaps pull partner's double anyway?!

 

Why is partner not allowed to double 5♥ to say it goes down with just marginal extras? When playing forcing pass we are obliged to double them, and if this can possibly be reasonable, surely we would want to double them very often also without the forcing pass convention! So I don't see how a subsequent double from the original doubler could encourage a pull in this situation.

If the original doubler wants to bid on to 5♠ or slam, he must gamble over partner's pass, just as he must gamble over partner's double, a possible yarborough, had we played forcing pass.

[fred]

If the pass is forcing,does it mean I should double with xxxx, x,xxxx,xxxx ?

Yes, this is a mandatory double if playing forcing pass. Passing would show values.

 

jdonn:

But it seems to me most 3244 17 counts would just want to pass it out (if your pass was nonforcing) and accept their small plus, rather than invite partner to pull to what is almost sure to be a minus.

 

Something is very odd here.

 

If we play forcing pass, responder can

- pass over 5♥, inviting a bid.

- double 5♥ noninviting, expecting to play 5♥X.

This is all fine.

 

But without forcing pass, responder can

- double 5♥, inviting a bid

- pass NF with a bad hand, but perhaps pull partner's double anyway?!

 

Why is partner not allowed to double 5♥ to say it goes down with just marginal extras? When playing forcing pass we are obliged to double them, and if this can possibly be reasonable, surely we would want to double them very often also without the forcing pass convention! So I don't see how a subsequent double from the original doubler could encourage a pull in this situation.

If the original doubler wants to bid on to 5♠ or slam, he must gamble over partner's pass, just as he must gamble over partner's double, a possible yarborough, had we played forcing pass.

This is a very good post IMO. I think you are right on MFA.

 

If Pass is non-forcing then the original doubler has the luxury of being able to Pass out 5H if he wants, but he will normally want to DBL because he will normally expect 5H to go down.

 

He has to be able to do this - the 2nd DBL is penalty and the (non-forcing) passer should rarely (if ever) pull.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com