Apollo81 Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 IMPs none vul ♠AQxx♥Qxx♦Axx♣xxx 1♣-(p)-1♠-(p)2♣-(2♥)-?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Double is my choice. Extra values that don't promise a club honour, and do imply some hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I'll probably end up bidding 3NT but I'll double first. Maybe partner can pass (unlikely but with opponents that bid like this, who knows!) or maybe something interesting happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 tbh I'm not clear at all what doubles mean when they do this kind of stuff because...well they never do this. I guess on general meta rules it is a takeout/cards double, but if I wasn't confident partner would interpret this way (because "they are so retarded for bidding this way that I want to penalty X them) seems reasonable" then I would just bid 3N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 tbh I'm not clear at all what doubles mean when they do this kind of stuff because...well they never do this. I guess on general meta rules it is a takeout/cards double, but if I wasn't confident partner would interpret this way (because "they are so retarded for bidding this way that I want to penalty X them) seems reasonable" then I would just bid 3N. Under our meta rules double is penalties (opener has defined their hand). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 because "they are so retarded for bidding this way that I want to penalty X them Reminds me of a note in the old Verhees/jansma system book: a redouble of a psychic double is business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted January 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 For the record, I think double says they made a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 I'm just going to bid 2NT... lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roupoil Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 At the table, I would surely bid 3NT, don't want to let my partner uncomfortable since I don't know myself what the meaning of the double is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 The last time an opponent came into an auction like this, the tariff was 1100 when I was about to pass out partner's 2-level partial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 The last time an opponent came into an auction like this, the tariff was 1100 when I was about to pass out partner's 2-level partial. That's funny. All the time my opps bid like this they find pard with AKxx of trumps. Guess that's why I bid 2NT.. lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 That's funny. All the time my opps bid like this they find pard with AKxx of trumps. Guess that's why I bid 2NT.. lol. Last time my p did it I had 6-card support. No kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Am I the only one who has never bid this way? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Am I the only one who has never bid this way? lol No. You get some weirdos who futz around and scratch their ***** and think that 2C sounds weak and will be passed out so they better bid. I would X and hope pd took it for penalties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 The only possible explanation is that they "psyched" their pass, trying to induce a double, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 The only possible explanation is that they "psyched" their pass, trying to induce a double, no? I have seen that happen, but I don't think it's a deliberate psyche. Rather something like "an overcall is limited to 15 points and a jump overcall shows a 6-card, so with 16+ and a 5-card I have to pass first". Or maybe something like a solid 8-card. Too strong for an overcall but too little HCPs for a double. So pass first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted January 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 The only possible explanation is that they "psyched" their pass, trying to induce a double, no? Either that or they missorted their hand and had some hearts in with their diamonds. I actually saw this once. The guy had seven hearts and a diamond void but he had his hand sorted spades-hearts-clubs-hearts on the first round (thats what he claimed at least) Given the nonzero number of people who said they would double here, maybe I should try this tactic next time I have like 8 hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted January 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Given the nonzero number of people who said they would double here, maybe I should try this tactic next time I have like 8 hearts. Oh wow, I just looked at the poll results. 11 doubles!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted January 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 If asked, I would have said that there are 3.5 possible calls here: 2NT, 3♣, 3♥, and 3NT. I wouldn't have said 3♣ is a possible call since I think I could bid this on an 8 count, but apparently this isn't a universal view..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Problems like this appear a lot more in the forums than they do at the table. That's why they create some issues for us. I suppose I'd 3♥ here. NT needs to be played by pard. I'll pay off to 9 runners and my ♥Qxx being good enough to stop the suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 tbh I'm not clear at all what doubles mean when they do this kind of stuff because...well they never do this. I guess on general meta rules it is a takeout/cards double, but if I wasn't confident partner would interpret this way (because "they are so retarded for bidding this way that I want to penalty X them) seems reasonable" then I would just bid 3N. Under our meta rules double is penalties (opener has defined their hand). I know many friends of mine in the Netherlands use a rule like this, but it has never been really clear to me what "defined their hand" means. Is two calls enough? Or does it need to be a bid that limits the strength of their hand more precisely? What about shape? What about NT openers, or is this a special category that you discuss explicitly? I also intended my double as cards/competitively, not because I'm confident that that is the best agreement but because that is the agreement I have. I would also double with KJxxx xx Kxxx Jx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 The only possible explanation is that they "psyched" their pass, trying to induce a double, no? Why couldn't they have a 3433 16 count with no club stop? I mean, I know Jlall would X with that (I think), but most people don't have a good bid for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 The only possible explanation is that they "psyched" their pass, trying to induce a double, no? Why couldn't they have a 3433 16 count with no club stop? I mean, I know Jlall would X with that (I think), but most people don't have a good bid for that. Ah, so they pass and then bid 2H, makes sense. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Most of the doublers seem to think that RHO is certifiable, and that our only problem is maximizing the good result we have coming. While I am not someone who bids like RHO, my belief is that either he is an idiot or he has a hand such as xx J9xxxx x AQxx, where he felt unable, in his style, to overcall 1 or 2♥, and the bidding has told him that he has a reasonable chance of buying sufficient heart length in dummy to make a heart contract a reasonable ploy... either at this level or, if he is lucky, as a save should he catch 4 card support. If you accept that RHO could well hold long weak hearts with good clubs, then double becomes fraught with peril, while 3N becomes a dangerous overbid. Imagine partner with Kx xx KQx KJ10xxx. Had RHO passed, I probably would have overbid mildly via 3N. I think the hand is worth about 2.7 NT, but fractional bids are discouraged in most forms of the game B) As it is, armed with an inference from the auction, and noting that we are white, I will swing low and bid 2N. This may wrongside the contract if partner has Kx AND RHO has the heart Ace, but I don't think that that layout is probable... if I had to bet, I'd bet that RHO has NO top heart at all. This is why I don't bid 3♥, which, at the cost of being a mild overbid, might seem to offer a positional advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 tbh I'm not clear at all what doubles mean when they do this kind of stuff because...well they never do this. I guess on general meta rules it is a takeout/cards double, but if I wasn't confident partner would interpret this way (because "they are so retarded for bidding this way that I want to penalty X them) seems reasonable" then I would just bid 3N. Under our meta rules double is penalties (opener has defined their hand). I know many friends of mine in the Netherlands use a rule like this, but it has never been really clear to me what "defined their hand" means. Is two calls enough? Or does it need to be a bid that limits the strength of their hand more precisely? What about shape? What about NT openers, or is this a special category that you discuss explicitly? I also intended my double as cards/competitively, not because I'm confident that that is the best agreement but because that is the agreement I have. I would also double with KJxxx xx Kxxx Jx. By the way, I'm not actually a doubler on this hand - I've said clearly that I think double is for penalties, and I don't really have a penalty double. We have had fairly detailed discussions on what 'defend their hand' means. The short version is that opener defines his hand by: - opening with any pre-empt*- opening with one of a suit, hearing a value-showing call from partner and making any rebid [i.e. not including a pass or double by opener] Double is penalties by opener when responder has defined their hand by:- raising opener's suit (forcing or non-forcing)- making a rebid (e.g. 1D 1H 1S 2H P P 2S now doubles are penalties) Double is penalties by both opener and responder- after an explicitly game forcing from strength auction has been established- after both sides have made a positive bid and then tried to pass out the final contract There are special rules for NT openers, but these are related to understanding when partner has shown values, as we can respond to 1NT with a 0-count and pass with an 8-count. *there are some specific rules for the multi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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