Sub-moysian

[gwnn]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=skt98xhxxxdjxxckx&s=sajhjxdak9xxcajxx]133|200|Scoring: XIMP[/hv]

 

undisturbed bidding

 

1♦-1♠

3♣-3♦

3♥-3♠

4♦-5♣

 

all pass. NS agreements about this specific sequence "jump shift=GF"

[ArtK78]

I would call it pretty disturbed myself.

 

It is certainly disturbing.

[han]

What's disturbing? Easy to say but this is not an uncommon theme.

 

through 3S it was a good auction.

 

I don't like 4D, 4S seems clear to me.

 

5C is understandable but wrong I think, asking for disaster. Pass seems reasonable.

[EricK]

Looks like a misunderstanding of 3♥ to me.

 

South meant it as asking for a half-stopper in a possible false preference auction, and North took it as a cue bid with ♦ agreed.

[Guest Jlall]

Through 3S was fine, south has the absolute nut spade holding and has the easiest 4S bid ever to finish a very very good auction. 4D was bad.

 

The 3H-4D sequence COULD be just cuebidding (clear if you pull partners 3N bid). The question about what 5C is is interesting, I think if it's a cuebid north is overbidding with a pretty weak hand so he should bid 5D. South was obviously aware that north could have false preferenced with something like 2-4 in the minors so passed, but maybe north thought given his 3S bid he couldn't have 4 clubs since he would have bid 4C over 3H.

 

I really don't know, maybe in this position a cuebid is more logical but I would fall back on the meta agreement of "if it could be natural it is" and would say that its offering to play 5C.

[jdonn]

3♣ was a big overbid, 4♦ I don't understand at all rather than 4♠, and 5♣ seems like clearly a cuebid to me so south shouldn't pass, although it was a big overbid in that case. Overall I blame mostly south.

[Guest Jlall]

3♣ was a big overbid

yes didn't notice this, agree. Still think the auction after 3C up to 3S was very good though, and 4S by south woulda gotten them to a nice spot.

[Guest Jlall]

and 5♣ seems like clearly a cuebid to me so south shouldn't pass

Josh I thought this initially but then I thought I might bid KJxxx xx Qx xxxx like this. Would you bid 4C over 3H with this (it seems like you might want to try to get to a 5-2 fit with this hand)? Do you think this is a reasonable way to bid this hand?

[jdonn]

and 5♣ seems like clearly a cuebid to me so south shouldn't pass

Josh I thought this initially but then I thought I might bid KJxxx xx Qx xxxx like this. Would you bid 4C over 3H with this (it seems like you might want to try to get to a 5-2 fit with this hand)? Do you think this is a reasonable way to bid this hand?

That might want to bid that way but it's just one specific example and other hands would want the other meaning. I don't see preferring partner's first suit (even perhaps falsely), then rebidding your own suit, then a week later saying sorry I really have a fit in your second suit all along!

[Codo]

and 5♣ seems like clearly a cuebid to me so south shouldn't pass

Josh I thought this initially but then I thought I might bid KJxxx xx Qx xxxx like this. Would you bid 4C over 3H with this (it seems like you might want to try to get to a 5-2 fit with this hand)? Do you think this is a reasonable way to bid this hand?

The bidding started with:

 

1 ♦ 1 ♠

3 ♣

 

Why do you want to bid 3 ♦ in a gameforcing auction with

KJxxx xx Qx xxxx ?

 

3 Spade or 3 Heart are much better bids with this hand.

So there is no sense in bid 5 Club after 4 Diamond naturally.

 

Besides, in the given bidding, I dislike 3 Club and 4 Diamond for the reasons already mentioned.

[Guest Jlall]

The bidding started with:

 

1 ♦ 1 ♠

3 ♣

 

Why do you want to bid 3 ♦ in a gameforcing auction with

KJxxx xx Qx xxxx ?

Yes this is a 100 % normal bid. I know the most misunderstood auctions by weak players are jumpshift auctions; they are very complicated, but bidding 3S with this is horrible.

[skjaeran]

I strongly dislike the 3♣ bid. This is an easy 2♣ rebid IMO. And 4♦ comes in the same category, 3♠ is far better now - you have a superb holding in the suit after this sequence.

[TimG]

I don't like 3♣, 3♥ or 4♦, with 4♦ probably the worst because 4♠ seems so obvious in that auction, but it really never should have gotten to that point.

 

I don't think this is a case of players not understanding jump shift auctions.

 

Shift a few HCP and the auction might wel have started:

 

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♦

2♥-2♠

3♦-4♣

 

with the same sort of confusion. I think it is preference bidding that players do not understand.

[han]

What's wrong with 3H?

[Fluffy]

Agree with Han.

[TimG]

What's wrong with 3H?

I would prefer 3♠: I've got a pretty good holding there. But, I don't think 3♠ promises 3154 (or 3055).

[ArcLight]

Why is 3♣ horrible?

I thought the requirements are 19-21 total points (HCP + Length) and isn't taht what South has?

Admitedly the Jx in hearts may be worthless

 

 

What am I misunderstanding?

 

> I know the most misunderstood auctions by weak players are jumpshift auctions; they are very complicated,

 

Any further comments on typical Jumpshift mistakes?

[pclayton]

3♣ is poor because the South isn't worth a GF. If pard can't take a call over 2♣, you don't have game.

 

I think a normal auction has the bidding starting 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♦. North might take another call, but thats dubious.

[benlessard]

Through 3S was fine, south has the absolute nut spade holding and has the easiest 4S bid ever to finish a very very good auction. 4D was bad.

 

The 3H-4D sequence COULD be just cuebidding (clear if you pull partners 3N bid).

 

I have no problem with 3C (GF JS) or a 2C rebid. If you tend to respond light then 3C is probably an overbid. 4D instead of 4S isnt only a bad bid its an atrocious bid.

 

5C is natural to play since 3D is a catch all bid (doesnt show D fit in my book and could be false preference)

[jdonn]

I think a normal auction has the bidding starting 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♦. North might take another call, but thats dubious.

I disagree, 3♦ should show 6-4. South's third bid is a matter of style, either 2♥ or 2♠.

[Codo]

Why do you want to bid 3 ♦ in a gameforcing auction with

KJxxx xx Qx xxxx ?

Yes this is a 100 % normal bid. I know the most misunderstood auctions by weak players are jumpshift auctions; they are very complicated, but bidding 3S with this is horrible.

My priority order after 1 ♦ 1 ♠ 3 ♣ had been:

 

1. 3 Heart 4.sf asking for stopper or spade support. Wow exactly what I need 100 points

2. 3 Spade: I show my five card suit 20 points

3. 4 Club: I have a fit 5 points

4. pass 1 point.

5. 3 Diamond: I don´t show my club fit, my 5. spade, nor do I ask for pds hand.

-1000 points

 

Sorry, your concept is too deep for me. What is the sense in not bidding 3 Heart?

[jdonn]

Sorry, your concept is too deep for me. What is the sense in not bidding 3 Heart?

It lets a 3♥ bid be natural in case you are 5-5. It leaves partner room to bid 3♥ himself. You think if partner has spade support or hearts stopped you won't find out over 3♦?

 

Codo sorry but you speak too strongly in this case, 3♦ is a normal bid. I remember a thread a few months ago after a jump shift where EVERYONE knew responder should make a preference to opener's first suit, but you insisted he should bid 3NT, didn't like anyone's reasons for why that wasn't true, and like this time just kept on insisting and insisting instead of taking the chance to realize why so many good players would think the other way. It's just clear you don't know what 3♦ here means.

[firmit]

I think a normal auction has the bidding starting 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♦. North might take another call, but thats dubious.

I disagree, 3♦ should show 6-4. South's third bid is a matter of style, either 2♥ or 2♠.

2♠ should show 3 card support here, no? But as long as responder only has shown 4, I would not show my AJ support just yet.

What should 2♥ mean? Is it GF? As opener failed to take a stronger action on his second bid, is this only a strong-showing bid asking for stopper or should responder show 5 card spades?

 

I would also bid 2♥ as maximum, forcing partner to describe his hand. I would support responder to 3♠ if he rebids 2♠, and probably pass 3♣/♦ - happily knowing I have shown a strong 5-4 hand.

 

A side question: is 2NT from responder "lebensohl" forcing a 3♣ rebid?

[PetteriLem]

I am amazed to see that all the off-shape no-trumppers are not responding. There is a case for 15-17NT. If you think this is too strong go for it, then try 18-19NT. I would expect 1♦ - 1♠; 3♣ to show a serious minor 2-suiter, not showing uncertainty about possible games 3NT, 4♠, 5♣ or 5♦. I favor recommended 2♣ route.

[Codo]

Sorry, your concept is too deep for me. What is the sense in not bidding 3 Heart?

It lets a 3♥ bid be natural in case you are 5-5. It leaves partner room to bid 3♥ himself. You think if partner has spade support or hearts stopped you won't find out over 3♦?

 

Codo sorry but you speak too strongly in this case, 3♦ is a normal bid. I remember a thread a few months ago after a jump shift where EVERYONE knew responder should make a preference to opener's first suit, but you insisted he should bid 3NT, didn't like anyone's reasons for why that wasn't true, and like this time just kept on insisting and insisting instead of taking the chance to realize why so many good players would think the other way. It's just clear you don't know what 3♦ here means.

The threat you meant is:

BBO Forum

Sorry, but your memory is wrong. I asked the 3 ♥ bidders for their reasons and got none (few). So I asked again. After Frances and Josh were so kind to give the reasons I stopped to ask. I am not confessed by names, just by reasons. So I asked. So your memory did not serve you well this time. (Or did you meant another threat? I don't remeber one. But maybe my memory did not serve me well too.)

 

And in the actual threat I asked the question, because I would like to understand the reasons for a false preference in this case, which is very different from the other. Justin did not gave one. You did, thank you for that.

 

So hoping to understand it correct now: The false preference here is a kind of waiting bid, asking opener to show a little bid more about his hand, instead of describing more of the own hand. (It is not completly undescreptive, but could include many more possible hands then I had thought about)

 

And where is the borderline, when do you stop to give the false preference? Never? You always bid 3 Diamond without 5/5 in the majors or a strong 6 card suit in spades? Or is it KJxxx xx x Qxxxx?

 

Is it possible, that you will bid 3 ♦ after

1 ♥ 1 ♠ 3 ♣ with

KJxxx xx Qx xxxx too?

Just to safe as much space as possible? Or is this a 5/5 hand too and you bid 3 Heart?