F You Preemptors!

[Guest Jlall]

2S p 3S

 

x

KQJxx

AQxxx

Kx

 

imps. Your bid. Don't remember vul, state if it matters to you.

[han]

I never look at vulnerability anyway.

 

Double, will bid 4H over 4C and 5D over 4D.

[matmat]

I do what Han says

 

btw, what would 3nt be here, can p, staring at, presumably, three spades, figure out that we don't have a stopper and thus we're distributional?

[Guest Jlall]

I do what Han says

 

btw, what would 3nt be here, can p, staring at, presumably, three spades, figure out that we don't have a stopper and thus we're distributional?

no, you might have 8 solid and the stif ace of spades or something

[Winstonm]

I bitch slap RHO.

[pclayton]

4♦ NLM obv.

 

Not playing that, I'll try 4♥.

[jdonn]

Never heard of it before although I bet it's been thought of, but maybe 4m as non-leaping michaels would be a good thing to play here. Yeah I know you would lose big on some single suited hands in minor.

 

I guess I would double. 4♥ is not bad though.

 

Edit: No I did NOT notice Phil wrote that right before I did. And yes I am that dumb.

[Apollo81]

I'd bid 4♥. The suit is chunkier, more likely to draw a 4♠ bid, and is only 10 tricks for the game bonus.

[helene_t]

With one p I play NLM here. Otherwise double and "correct" 4♣ to 4♥. dbl followed by 4♦ would show longer ♦ then ♥.

[whereagles]

Agree with helene.

[ArtK78]

I would overcall 4♥. Don't want to be faced with the problem of what to do if partner jumps to 5♣.

[han]

It's not a problem (you pass), but it might be a poor spot.

[Codo]

4 Heart least evil

[gnasher]

If you play 4D as two-suited after a 3S opening, you should play it here as well. I do.

 

Without that agreement, I'd double, then bid 4H over either minor, showing a flexible hand with five hearts. I'd expect partner to remove this with a singleton heart, or with a low doubleton heart and somewhere to go to. This might work out badly opposite xxx xx Kxxxx Axx, but caters for xxx Ax, Kxxxx xxx

 

This would have been more awkward if RHO had opened 3S, when we'd have had to consider what to do after (3S) dbl (4S) 5C.

[Cascade]

We play non-leaping Michaels in all auctions like this.

 

This hand seems perfect for 4♦.

[Guest Jlall]

lol obviously I should have specified...you do not play 4D as showing this exact hand. I thought it might be implied given that I posted this as a problem hand, and that I did not specify that you play this (nonstandard) convention.

[Cascade]

Yeah I know you would lose big on some single suited hands in minor.

Sure but big single suited minor hands already have three options:

 

1. Jump to 5 minor

 

2. Bid 3NT

 

3. Make a takeout double

 

Years ago I did a simulation that involved a hand that might be suitable for a 4minor overcall. The results of the simulation suggested that 4minor was the worst option - bashing 3NT without a full stopper; making an offshape takeout double; and overcalling a 4-card major all worked better than bidding 4minor - there is just no upside.

 

We I learnt about non-leaping Michaels it was the perfect convention to fill the void created by not overcalling on "tradional" 4minor hands.

[dake50]

SuperMaf(ChielVorheist sp?): 4C =H+D; 4D =H+C; X =bal/3-suits/1-suit works as specifically designed on this 2-suiter.

[ArcLight]

Yeah I know you would lose big on some single suited hands in minor.

Sure but big single suited minor hands already have three options:

 

1. Jump to 5 minor

 

2. Bid 3NT

 

3. Make a takeout double

 

Years ago I did a simulation that involved a hand that might be suitable for a 4minor overcall. The results of the simulation suggested that 4minor was the worst option - bashing 3NT without a full stopper; making an offshape takeout double; and overcalling a 4-card major all worked better than bidding 4minor - there is just no upside.

 

We I learnt about non-leaping Michaels it was the perfect convention to fill the void created by not overcalling on "tradional" 4minor hands.

Wayne,

What software did you use for the simulation?

[Fluffy]

At MP's I'd bid 4♥ because it rates to be our best spot, but at IMPs a flexible double seems the best way to go plus.

[Cascade]

Yeah I know you would lose big on some single suited hands in minor.

Sure but big single suited minor hands already have three options:

 

1. Jump to 5 minor

 

2. Bid 3NT

 

3. Make a takeout double

 

Years ago I did a simulation that involved a hand that might be suitable for a 4minor overcall. The results of the simulation suggested that 4minor was the worst option - bashing 3NT without a full stopper; making an offshape takeout double; and overcalling a 4-card major all worked better than bidding 4minor - there is just no upside.

 

We I learnt about non-leaping Michaels it was the perfect convention to fill the void created by not overcalling on "tradional" 4minor hands.

Wayne,

What software did you use for the simulation?

That particular simulation I did with some of my own code probably in C or C++ or some version of Pascal.

 

I generated 100s of hands with something close to a diamond pre-empt and a particular problem hand that a friend had given me and then by eye looked through what likely 'ball-park' outcomes would be from various actions. I then IMPed all of the results to get a winner and overcalling 4♣ was a big loser. Basically when it was right it was harder to gain a decent score since 5♣ is further away than 3NT or 4Major and 4♣ doesn't score very much.

 

Now when I do simulations I usually use Hans van Staveren's dealer. I have a compiled version called mdealer.exe. It links with the GIB double dummy engine so you can get double dummy results.

 

When I do single dummy simulations I use GIB running from batch files which I generate with some Delphi code that I have written but it is probably not much use to anyone else.

[Guest Jlall]

My partner (who I respect greatly) chose to X, I know I always bid 4H with this hand type so I thought it was interesting.

 

BTW, I assume the Xers are pulling 3N or no?

[benlessard]

I prefer X to 4H (this im convinced) and im not pulling 3nt (this im not convinced).

 

I agree that NLM is much better then playing natural 4m and its not even close.

[cherdano]

Yeah I know you would lose big on some single suited hands in minor.

Sure but big single suited minor hands already have three options:

 

1. Jump to 5 minor

 

2. Bid 3NT

 

3. Make a takeout double

I don't think this is news - non-big minor single suiters are hands that bid 4m (and note that Josh wasn't talking about big single suited minor hands, at least to those who read carefully B) )

 

Years ago I did a simulation that involved a hand that might be suitable for a 4minor overcall.  The results of the simulation suggested that 4minor was the worst option - bashing 3NT without a full stopper; making an offshape takeout double; and overcalling a 4-card major all worked better than bidding 4minor - there is just no upside.

 

We I learnt about non-leaping Michaels it was the perfect convention to fill the void created by not overcalling on "tradional" 4minor hands.

Maybe the hand you were considering in your simulation was too strong for 4m?