Whats The Corect Bid?

[jocdelevat]

[hv=d=e&v=e&s=st64hkqt97daqjc64]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -      Pass  1♥

 Pass  1♠    Pass  ?

 

 

[Guest Jlall]

I know the forums is 3-card raise happy, but... 1N. Your spades are too bad to raise with just 3.

[jdonn]

1nt seems clearly best to me, don't get too hung up that your hand isn't absolutely perfect due to the small doubleton club.

 

2♠ is at least a possible judgment call, but it seems like a wrong one with such bad support and a balanced hand.

 

2♥ is clearly wrong, since it shows at least six.

[pclayton]

I know the forums is 3-card raise happy, but... 1N. Your spades are too bad to raise with just 3.

Wow I never would have thought this. I think the xx of clubs is a big enough flaw to make 2♠ obv.

[jtfanclub]

Huh. I would have said...

 

1. xx in my hand with 3 trumps is an asset, xx in my hand in NT is a flaw- even if we have a 4-3 spade fit, I expect to take 1 more trick on the average with spades as trumps, and...

 

2. I wanna be dummy. If we end up playing 3NT, I want a black suit lead to go around to partner. I don't mind a red suit lead going through me. Again, it could easily be a one trick difference to have partner play it.

 

But I seem to be very contrary today. Not sure why.

[jocdelevat]

[hv=d=e&v=e&n=sakq5ha2d8532c953&s=st64hkqt97daqjc64]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     Pass  1♥

 Pass  1♠    Pass  1NT

 Pass  2NT   Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

First I should have apologize for not modify the default imps to mps. I always forgot. I hope no big diferences in biding.

I post those 2 hands as different polls because after the board was played I still didn't know how we should have bid it. If I were in pard shoes I consider Ax like 3 cards support but thats my opinion.

The opponents were star players and one of them ask me why I bid 1nt with no clubs. He said I could make even 12 in hearts because he will lead diamond. I thought was cheaper than 2h.

My pard ask him the auction and he said for them will be like 1h 1s 2s 3c another bid which i don't rember and then 4h.

Curios we got 50% and I look at traveller and from 6 tables 2 was 4h 3 was 3nt and 1 was 2nt. 1 nt and 1 4h made the rest failed.

 

Ty all for your answers.

 

P.S I thought the corect was 2h and I never thought about 2s. I have no problems playing nt contracts but I have big problems playing suit contracts especially 4-3 and 5-2 where I very rare got a good split. (i do not know whats the percentage)

 

This is the full board:

[hv=d=e&v=e&n=sakq5ha2d8532c953&w=s832hj54dtcaqjt72&e=sj97h863dk9764ck8&s=st64hkqt97daqjc64]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     Pass  1♥

 Pass  1♠    Pass  1NT

 Pass  2NT   Pass  Pass

 Pass  

[skjaeran]

I'm very happy to raise with 3 in this sequence.

 

However, parnter would normally bid 1♠ on Jxxx or worse. To play well in a 4-3 you normally need some strenght in trumps, playing in an empty suit is normally not a good thing.

 

So like Justin and Josh I'd normally (not always) rebid 1NT here. Another issue is that you've got better methods in the continuation after rebidding 1NT. The downside is that you might wrongside the final contract.

 

Rebidding 2♥ is not an alternative. That shows 6, and KQT9x isn't a 6-bagger.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 1NT, you have a bal. hand you should tell this partner.

Since you raised this question in the B/I section, I would

strongly recommend this.

 

#2 If you bid 2S, which you could agree to do, you

should play add. conventions, so that responder can find

out, that you hold only 3 card support and a bal. hand.

 

#3 The bid you should not make is 2H, this shows a 6 carder.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Dealer: East Vul: EW Scoring: IMP ♠ AKQ5 ♥ A2 ♦ 8532 ♣ 953 ♠ T64 ♥ KQT97 ♦ AQJ ♣ 64  

 

West  North East  South

 

-    -    Pass  1♥

Pass  1♠    Pass  1NT

Pass  2NT  Pass  Pass

Pass 

 

First I should have apologize for not modify the default imps to mps. I always forgot. I hope no big diferences in biding.

<snip>

Hi,

 

2NT is an underbid, even at MP, responder

should bid 3NT, -2 after the normal club lead.

 

If opener raise to 2S, you will reach 4S, making,

or after responder learned about the openers bal.

nature and the 3 card support, you will end up in

3NT anyway.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

2S is best, 1NT is ok , 2H is out. Btw why did your partner make an invitational bid with a 13 count?

[helene_t]

I'm not so kind on bidding 2♠ with 3. 3-card raises are normal over

1m-1♠

where one could be stuck for a rebid with a 34(51), but after a 2♥ opening partner will assume 4-card support.

 

2♥ would be a big mistake, I'd much sooner bid 2♦.

[ArtK78]

I often raise major suit responses on 3 card support. But I like my 3 card support to be 3 to an honor (A, K or Q) rather than Txx. Further, the hand is balanced, even if there is a small doubleton club.

 

So, on this hand, I rebid 1NT.

[Stephen Tu]

This is very much a stylistic question. I am a 2♠ bidder. Yes, I'd like better spades, but the bad spades wouldn't stop most from raising if the clubs were small stiff, so for me the extra small card isn't enough to sway things. It is enough for many other people as you can see by the poll results.

 

So 2♠ works better on hands like this, and generally if partner is strong enough to bid again you break even or are ahead (if we play NT I'd prefer to play it from partner's side with his club stopper led into). It also works better on hands where partner wasn't bidding over 1nt, and 2♠ outscores 1nt.

 

It works poorly when partner bid spades on Jxxx, is passing 2♠, 1nt was a better contract, and the opps don't bail you out by balancing or misdefending.

[jdonn]

So 2♠ works better on hands like this

Am I taking you out of context, or are you stating that definitively? Because that doesn't sound like something you would normally say.

 

It works poorly when partner bid spades on Jxxx, is passing 2♠, 1nt was a better contract, and the opps don't bail you out by balancing or misdefending.

Something people usually fail to consider is that raising on hands like this widens the range of this auction, since a balanced 12 count with three small spades is worse for play in spades than any hand which people who don't make raises like this could have. Thus any auction that begins this way become inherently less accurate. However the converse (is that the word I mean?) doesn't apply to bidding 1NT on this hand, since whether you make this raise or not a 1NT rebid could be a balanced 12 count, so that range doesn't change.

 

Other disadvantages are that if LHO overcalls you do not want a spade lead, nor do you want partner to compete to the three level in all likelihood. When they make that balance that you hope bails you out, partner might bail them out right back, expecting better support from our hand.

 

These poll results are very surprising to me, I always considered myself a big supporter of three card raises. I didn't realize possession of a small doubleton on the side makes that raise automatic for some people, regardless of the rest of the hand.

[blackshoe]

If it were me, the bidding would go 1♥-1♠-1NT-3NT. Then West would lead the ♣A, East would unblock the K, and West would take his 6 club tricks. Down 2. Them's the breaks. ;)

[pclayton]

Other disadvantages are that if LHO overcalls you do not want a spade lead, nor do you want partner to compete to the three level in all likelihood.

Why would LHO suddenly overcall after passing 1♥ the first time? I know it happens, but its always bewildering to me when it does.

[Guest Jlall]

Yes, I'd like better spades, but the bad spades wouldn't stop most from raising if the clubs were small stiff, so for me the extra small card isn't enough to sway things.

This is a different situation as:

 

-Having a stiff makes your hand better for support of spades, so if partner makes a game try or bids 3S you aren't so unhappy. By raising with a hand like this which is pretty bad for a spade contract in context of other 2S bids (3 with a stiff, 4, or a balanced hand with concentrated values like KQx AKxxx Jxx xx).

 

-If you bid 2D with Txx KQT9x AQJx x (which to be honest is tempting to me) you have to pass a 2H preference and will miss some spade games that way. Even if partner bids 3C your 3S bid is ambiguous as it could be made on a doubleton. And if partner were to bid 2N or 3D you have to overbid with 3S in an effort to show your support. All of these things are not true with this hand where you will be starting with 1N. Partner has checkback available so finding 5-3 fits when partner has game inv+ is not hard like if you are bidding 2D.

 

-When you rebid 1N after opening 1H partner can go back to 2S with 5 on a lot of hand types (agreed with some he will pass). This 1N bid, unlike 1C 1S 1N, won't have a stiff spade. With a hand like KQ9xx xx xx Kxxx I would expect partner to always be going back to 2S expecting even a 5-2 fit to play better and hoping to catch a 5-3. So a lot of the time when you want to be in 2S rather than 1N on a 5-3 fit you can still get there. On a hand like this I don't see wanting to be in the 4-3 fit that often though, so I'm not too worried about missing it. However with the 3541 hand type these things are not true, and I will always miss the 5-3 and may miss a worthwhile 4-3.

 

-1N rates to be a better partscore than 2D when passed. A minor thing but still a difference in 2D with 1 less club than 1N.

[Guest Jlall]

Also one of the main reasons for raising on 3 with 3541 is that there is a range of hands like good 8/9/10 with 5 spades where partner will game try over 2S but will not game try over 2D. You want to encourage him to make that game try.

 

After a 1N rebid that range is smaller (10 and 5 spades will still usually try), and with this hand (3 bad spades, bad hand in general, balanced) you do NOT want to encourage that game try as you are going to reject it.

[Stephen Tu]

So 2♠ works better on hands like this

Am I taking you out of context, or are you stating that definitively? Because that doesn't sound like something you would normally say.

 

I meant the whole hand like this considering both opener & responder's hands. Not opener's hand in isolation.

 

Something people usually fail to consider is that raising on hands like this widens the range of this auction, since a balanced 12 count with three small spades is worse for play in spades than any hand which people who don't make raises like this could have.

 

This is true but the extent to which it is true depends a bit on how much lighter one opens with extra shape. If you only open 3532 w/ sound 12 and won't raise spades but start opening some 10 counts w/ 3541 and do, it's still a wide range with the latter.

[Stephen Tu]

-When you rebid 1N after opening 1H partner can go back to 2S with 5 on a lot of hand types (agreed with some he will pass). This 1N bid, unlike 1C 1S 1N, won't have a stiff spade

 

That's also stylistic. I often bid 1nt over 1S w/ 15(43) mins, because

- I think 1h-1s-2d is a really awkward sequence, with opener so wide ranging, 4th suit gobbling so much room, I like to avoid it if reasonable to do so.

- 1nt after all may be the best scoring partial

 

So that of course also influences my increased tendency to raise on 3, and not to rebid 2s on 5 after 1h-1s-1nt.

 

There's lots of swings & roundabouts here both ways, I think it's hard to really definitively determine if one way is clearly better. Maybe with a ton of simulation.

[jtfanclub]

Another issue is that you've got better methods in the continuation after rebidding 1NT.

Actually, if you don't mind me semi-changing the subject....

 

My methods over 1♥-1♠-1NT are not overly good, which perhaps is part of why I prefer 2♠. What would you recommend?

[skjaeran]

Another issue is that you've got better methods in the continuation after rebidding 1NT.

Actually, if you don't mind me semi-changing the subject....

 

My methods over 1♥-1♠-1NT are not overly good, which perhaps is part of why I prefer 2♠. What would you recommend?

I'd recomment xy-NT.

It's easy and reasonably good.

I did express myself badly above. What I really meant to say is that you'll have better control regarding fit and strength after rebidding 1NT, regardless of methods - as long as you play "something". :huh: