Slowball Vs Speedball

[mike777]

I played a few slowball games the last few weeks that were wonderful.

They finished in 70 minutes. There were no unfinished boards and I did not spend the whole hour asking people to hurry.

 

Hopefully the powers that be can have more of these games.

[blackshoe]

How many boards?

[mike777]

How many boards?

The same in both....12

[blackshoe]

How many boards?

The same in both....12

Interesting. That's a bit less than 6 minutes per board. The usual recommendation in f2f bridge for a "normal" session is about 7.5 minutes per board - and many people, particularly in club games, take longer. Sometimes much longer. :(

[Jacki]

Thank you for noticing Mike. Late last fall (I believe it was toward the end of November) we shortened the slowball games from 16 minutes a round (8 minutes a board) to 14 minutes (7 minutes a board). The fact is, when we announced the shortened time to the tournament, many players didn't even realize it had been reduced. Which showed us that 8 minutes had been way too long.

 

It's still a procedure for all tables in a section to move when the last hand of the round is finished whether the alloted time has expired or not which explains Mike finishing even earlier.

 

It is our hope that the shortened rounds will attract the players who would like a LITTLE bit of thinking time while keeping the faster games for the speed demons among us. And we're not above shortening them even further if the players ask for it, but right now everyone seems to be pretty happy with the time line.

 

Jacki :)

[blackshoe]

Maybe the speedball should go to 1 minute per board. :huh:

[A2003]

Suggestion:

speedball games: 10 boards, 60 min run time, 5 rounds instead of 4 rounds, reduced award points.

This will give some comfort break. Reduced TD work.

[G_R__E_G]

I could be mistaken, but I believe that the ACBL requires that at least 12 boards be played if there are to be any masterpoints awarded.

[uday]

Y, acbl regulations require a min of 12 boards. the regulations are less than flexible when it comes to altering things to make more sense in an online environment.

[TylerE]

Any thoughts on a LONGER format game? 5 rounds of 4 in 1.5 hours, something like that? That's 4.5 minutes a board, but I bet it would run smoother, since there would be less time spent on introductions/announcements at the start of a round, time spent checking results, etc. Heck, in the current speedball format just turning off the barometer would probably speed things up 30-45 seconds a round.

[blackshoe]

Y, acbl regulations require a min of 12 boards. the regulations are less than flexible when it comes to altering things to make more sense in an online environment.

What alteration did you have in mind?

 

It seems to me that either masterpoints (whether ACBL's or someone else's) have some value or they don't. If they have value, it would be (to me) as some measure of one's skill at the game. If they have no value, then who cares whether they're awarded or not?

 

You could, in effect (if the acbl allowed it) award masterpoints to folks just for showing up, but where's the value in that?

 

I grant that "miinimum of 12 boards" is somewhat arbitrary, but I think the line has to be drawn somewhere. Why is a different place better?

[mike777]

I think it is very clear that ACBL masterpoints have some value. You could argue that they have lots of value.

 

 

Measurement of skill is a different discussion from "do masterpoints have value".

 

I would set forth someone with lots of Platinum masterpoints is very often a higher skilled player than someone with none. Not 100% but very often. :)

 

As for BBO's future plans or thoughts on ACBL online games, I would love to hear more from Fred, Sheri and Uday.

[blackshoe]

I think it is very clear that ACBL masterpoints have some value. You could argue that they have lots of value.

Not me. What value do you think they have?

[mike777]

I think it is very clear that ACBL masterpoints have some value. You  could argue that they have lots of value.

Not me. What value do you think they have?

Millions of dollars.

 

People spend millions of dollars for masterpoints in the ACBL. If people spend money in pursuit of them, they have value. In this case millions of dollars worth of value. ;)

 

If you really think they are worthless, then lobby ACBL to get rid of them or start your own bridge league without them. :wacko:

 

Look online and see how many people pay to play online ACBL rather than free tourneys or tourneys without them. :)

 

If you think they are worthless fair enough, but you really need to prove they have no value, zero, and not just say it. :)

[Cascade]

I think it is very clear that ACBL masterpoints have some value. You  could argue that they have lots of value.

Not me. What value do you think they have?

Millions of dollars.

 

People spend millions of dollars for masterpoints in the ACBL. If people spend money in pursuit of them, they have value. In this case millions of dollars worth of value. :(

 

If you really think they are worthless, then lobby ACBL to get rid of them or start your own bridge league without them. B)

 

Look online and see how many people pay to play online ACBL rather than free tourneys or tourneys without them. :)

 

If you think they are worthless fair enough, but you really need to prove they have no value, zero, and not just say it. :)

You can't ascribe all of the value to masterpoints. Most of the value in my opinion would be of playing bridge in an organized game with rules etc that they are familar with.

[A2003]

You can't ascribe all of the value to masterpoints. Most of the value in my opinion would be of playing bridge in an organized game with rules etc that they are familar with.

 

A player delays the game in such a way to play two boards a round and brings the game to unplay the third board with in the last 4 minutes for each round.

This player gets ave score for boards like third, sixth, 9th and 12th boards.

Is the player within the organized game rules of ACBL speedball tournament?

 

Another player works to play all three boards and unable to finish the third board and gets ave minus for unfinished boards.

 

Is there any rules written for speedball games?

Players still write to other players:

faster please

Please bid,

speedball

speedball game

you are too slow

You should be playing in slowball.

You should not have entered this tournament, if you playing slow.

fast

3 min or what ever time left

hurry

 

Are the players allowed to write/chat anything they want?

Since, every players knows it is speedball tournament and they are committed to play fast.

[blackshoe]

I think it is very clear that ACBL masterpoints have some value. You  could argue that they have lots of value.

Not me. What value do you think they have?

Millions of dollars.

 

People spend millions of dollars for masterpoints in the ACBL. If people spend money in pursuit of them, they have value. In this case millions of dollars worth of value. :rolleyes:

 

If you really think they are worthless, then lobby ACBL to get rid of them or start your own bridge league without them. :)

 

Look online and see how many people pay to play online ACBL rather than free tourneys or tourneys without them. :)

 

If you think they are worthless fair enough, but you really need to prove they have no value, zero, and not just say it. :)

Mike,

 

You assert that acbl masterpoints are "worth millions of dollars", and then tell me that if I believe otherwise I have to prove it. I don't think so. Where's the proof of your assertion? IAC, I don't propose either of us waste time on it.

 

Let me rephrase the question: why do you value acbl masterpoints? If you don't value them, why do you think those who do value them?

 

BTW, if they were worth money, you could sell them. I doubt very much you'll find a market - the ACBL won't let you.

 

I wouldn't waste my time lobbying the acbl, and there's already at least one other league in the US, with its own masterpoint scheme, so I wouldn't bother starting my own either.

[mike777]

I think it is very clear that ACBL masterpoints have some value. You  could argue that they have lots of value.

Not me. What value do you think they have?

Millions of dollars.

 

I only thought you should try and back up your statement since you first brough the issue that "MP have no value"

 

 

 

People spend millions of dollars for masterpoints in the ACBL. If people spend money in pursuit of them, they have value. In this case millions of dollars worth of value. :rolleyes:

 

If you really think they are worthless, then lobby ACBL to get rid of them or start your own bridge league without them. :)

 

Look online and see how many people pay to play online ACBL rather than free tourneys or tourneys without them. :)

 

If you think they are worthless fair enough, but you really need to prove they have no value, zero, and not just say it. :)

Mike,

 

You assert that acbl masterpoints are "worth millions of dollars", and then tell me that if I believe otherwise I have to prove it. I don't think so. Where's the proof of your assertion? IAC, I don't propose either of us waste time on it.

 

Let me rephrase the question: why do you value acbl masterpoints? If you don't value them, why do you think those who do value them?

 

BTW, if they were worth money, you could sell them. I doubt very much you'll find a market - the ACBL won't let you.

 

I wouldn't waste my time lobbying the acbl, and there's already at least one other league in the US, with its own masterpoint scheme, so I wouldn't bother starting my own either.

Sigh, I did try and prove it but in any event you offer no proof that acbl masterpoints have zero value. Reread my post.

 

I must admit I thought it was obvious that they have some value to someone. I just estimate millions and millions in value. Again this just seems obvious to me and I gave you examples.

Just look at online ACBL. Do you guys really believe that if the ACBL stopped handing out MP that revenue would not drop, that hotels and airfare spending will not decrease?

 

Of course they sell MP. Ask Pro players if their revenue would go down if the ACBL stopped handing out MP. Ask Hotels if they would get fewer customers at tourneys?

 

 

Even better just ask Fred or Uday if they thought their revenue would go down if they stopped paying out ACBL masterpoints. Ask if offering ACBL MP might draw customers to their site where they may sell them other services?

 

Alot of ACBL members treasure trying to get that LM Card.

 

You ask me why I think MP have some value and I offer this story.

In the Fall at the one and only tourney I attended in many many years I was told numerous stories of how people would travel and travel to get that LM card and then stop going to out of town tourneys. That means it has some value to someone. They pay money to travel out of town.

 

But let me change tack and see if perhaps they even have some value for you, something above zero.

 

Assuming you play alot of ACBL games do you think if the ACBL stopped handing out MP it would somehow affect the games you play in a negative way?

 

Of course if you never play in ACBL games the impact may not be much.

 

Bottom line if you want to sell me the entire ACBL franchise where I can offer MP or sell me the ACBL franchise where I cannot. I value the selling of MP at more than zero.

[blackshoe]

Mike, if you reread my posts, you will find that I never claimed that acbl masterpoints have zero value. What I said was that I will not argue that they have "lots of value" (those last three words are yours).

 

The ACBL sells masterpoints. Sort of. But they have a monopoly. No one else can sell them (clubs and units and districts in effect sell them as ACBL's agents). I do not think that necessarily means that they have value - but then I suppose we could argue about what "value" means. I don't really want to get into that, but I will say that "value" is relative. A non bridge player couldn't care less about masterpoints - to him they're worth nothing. To some players, they're worth something - as you say, people pursue the LM card, but is that really a value on the MPs, or is it a value on the card? Suppose the ACBL said "anyone can have an ACBL Life Master card. You don't have to play any bridge, just give us fifty bucks." Would people still value it? I think they value the card because they believe that when they can say "I'm an ACBL Life Master", that's equivalent to "I'm a good (expert?) bridge player". It ain't, of course.

 

I suspect that if the ACBL stopped handing out masterpoints, some of the people who play where I play would quit playing. If that caused the clubs where I play to go out of business - and it might - then I would have to find some other place to play. So in that sense I suppose they have some value - although frankly I don't care if I never make LM - it's just not that important to me. I'd rather just know that I'm getting better at the game - and having a LM card won't tell me that.

[mike777]

Ok I will guess we agree MP have some value.... I think it is millions andmillions you think it is far less.

 

 

"....although frankly I don't care if I never make LM - it's just not that important to me. I'd rather just know that I'm getting better at the game - and having a LM card won't tell me that....."

 

You could care less about LM Card, You seem to value the LM card at zero or something even far worse than zero....I think many paying members...more than 50% do care, care with some value, more than zero.

 

 

But lets stop the sillyness. :)

Lets see if online bridge, local clubs and hotels and airlines and selling of books, ocean cruises and acbl and wbf and etc revenue goes up if the ACBL stops 100% the awarding of MP.

 

If revenue goes up....I am wrong, very wrong.

[Guest Jlall]

Without masterpoints bridge pros couldnt exist :o

[helene_t]

I have yet to meet someone in real life who takes master points seriously. Sure, whenever someone gets his Club Master title he receives an applaud. But I have never heard anyone discussing master points, nor have I ever seen a letter to the editor addressing master points. My guess is that if you poll 100 players in some open house event, most would have no idea that the event awarded master points, and only a couple would know how many master points were awarded.

 

If they mattered to people, people would be complaining all the time over the unfairness of the master points formulas, just like the players at bridge sites with rating schemes complain about the unfairness of the rating system.

[Codo]

I have yet to meet someone in real life who takes master points seriously. Sure, whenever someone gets his Club Master title he receives an applaud. But I have never heard anyone discussing master points, nor have I ever seen a letter to the editor addressing master points. My guess is that if you poll 100 players in some open house event, most would have no idea that the event awarded master points, and only a couple would know how many master points were awarded.

 

If they mattered to people, people would be complaining all the time over the unfairness of the master points formulas, just like the players at bridge sites with rating schemes complain about the unfairness of the rating system.

I strongly disagree.

 

It is true that you seldom meet people who will tell you how serious they are about Masterpoints. But many players are defenitly serious about them.

 

They hire pros in America to earn them.

They book bridge holidays to earn them.

They pay for them.

They care.

Some even committed some crimes to get more.

 

They are just intelligent enough not to complain about the system, because they started to get their first points in 1950 and have a reasonable amount. They enjoy the advantages of the current system.

 

The people who complaint about the unfairness are normally younger and don´t play as often as the typical lol.

[kenberg]

Myself, I don't put much stock in masterpoints but it's an old argument and I don't much care how it turns out. BUT this slowball stuff sounds great, especially the psychology of it. I rarely have actual time problems for a hand or round as a whole but every once in a while I do actually wish to think a bit. This often produces simulated snores and other rude responses. A tourney where everyone agrees that some thinking is acceptable is a great innovation. These tourneys are where? Or are you just using "slowball" in the sense of "not speedball"?

[mike777]

"But I have never heard anyone discussing master points"

 

 

Helene in the one and only tourney I have gone to in years I heard lots of people talking about masterpoints. I even heard them talking about them in the Bathroom. :)

 

I see people list their ACBL MP total or MP ranking in their online profiles. People care and that is ok. People care about MP races and that is ok. Fun is fun and if someone can make a buck out of it, cool :)

 

I often heard comments such as I only need 3.2 more masterpoints to become LM.

 

Ken I meant slowball to be 12 bds in a 90 minute tourney and speedball to mean 12 bds in 60 minute tourney.