whereagles Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Matchpoints, all vuln, intermediate field, expert pard. ♠ AJ2♥ 9♦ AKQT42♣ K97 You pard1♦ ... 1♥2NT* 3♥3NT 4NT 2NT = good diamond suit, 18-20 hcp, game forcing3♥ = natural, 5+ cards. Note: pard could have supported diamonds either with a direct 3/4♦ over 2NT, or 4♦ over 3NT. He might have also bid 4♥ over 3NT, natural forcing. Black suit bids over 2NT would have been natural and 4♣ over 3NT would be muddy. Questions: 1. Agree that 4♥ over 3NT would have been natural forcing? 2. How would you interpret 4NT? 3. What do you bid now? (In light of your interpretation of 4NT, of course.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 1. This is the key question. IF 4 Heart was forcing, 4 NT is surely non forcing and invitational. 4 Heart SHOULD be forcing, because with a 6 card Heart suit an no interesst in anything he could have bid 4 Heart one round earlier. 2. Invitational to 6. 4 Diamond is KC for diamond, so no need for 4 NT to be RCKB. 3. In the light of showing 18-20 hcps my 17 look like Min, so I pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 1. No. Game bids are to play unless we have previously agreed otherwise. 2. Natural invitational 3. Pass. Short hearts and minimum HCP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 4H to play. 4NT natural and invitational. 6NT accept. Maybe partner is saying that Hearts is all he has, but AKQJxx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Agree with Frances, but if 4♥ over 3NT would be NF you need some other way of forcing with long hearts. Maybe 4♣ over 3N would be a cue for hearts, assuming that with real clubs I would have bid 3♣ over 2N (or 4♣ if 3♣ would be conventional). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 #1 no, 4H is to play, just showing a good 6 card suit most likely you play 3C over 2NT as NMF#2 quantitative#3 Pass With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I think that its pointless to survey the forums about what 4♥ should mean. You're playing highly non standard methods. You shouldn't expect us to be able to guess the right systemic definitions or the associated nuances with different auctions. Its clear that you need to sort out a number of different hand types with 5+ Hearts: 1. Hands with 5 Hearts that need to determine the best strain2. Hands with long hearts that are interested in playing 4♥ rather than 3N3. Hands with strong self sufficient Heart suits that are interested in exploring slam4. Hands with 5 Hearts and a Diamond fragment I have no idea which of these hands would have responded 2♥ over 1♦I have no idea which of these hands would have responded 3♣ over 2NTI have no idea which of these hands would have responded 4♥ over 2NT What I do know is that what your agreements with partner matter a hell of a lot more than my random guesses based on incomplete information about your methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I do agree that "game bids are to play" is often true- but not always. Which hand will bid: 1 ♦ 1 ♥2 NT 3 ♥3 NT 4 ♥? Pd showed you a gf with Diamondswith exactly 18-20 HCPS.YOu say: I have 5+ Hearts.He bids 3 NT: Sorry, No 3 card fit. You: Okay I don´t care, I still want to play Heart. If you want to play exactly 4 HEarts opposite a hand with 18-20 HCPS and long diamonds, even opposite a misfit why don´t you bid 4 Heart after 2 NT? Where is the sense in asking pd about his heart support and when he say: I have none say: Okay, then we still play Hearts and not NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianshark Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Maybe if he had some hearts, and hence found a cue-bid, then slam is on, but without a heart fit, game is the limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I think that its pointless to survey the forums about what 4♥ should mean. You're playing highly non standard methods. You shouldn't expect us to be able to guess the right systemic definitions or the associated nuances with different auctions. I basically agree with Frances about what I would assume the bids mean, but I also agree 100% with the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I do agree that "game bids are to play" is often true- but not always. Which hand will bid: 1 ♦ 1 ♥2 NT 3 ♥3 NT 4 ♥? Pd showed you a gf with Diamondswith exactly 18-20 HCPS.YOu say: I have 5+ Hearts.He bids 3 NT: Sorry, No 3 card fit. You: Okay I don´t care, I still want to play Heart. If you want to play exactly 4 HEarts opposite a hand with 18-20 HCPS and long diamonds, even opposite a misfit why don´t you bid 4 Heart after 2 NT? Where is the sense in asking pd about his heart support and when he say: I have none say: Okay, then we still play Hearts and not NT. Huh? If you're going to play in hearts all the time, but are looking for a slam only if partner's got some support, you'd bid like this. If you're still looking for a slam in hearts over 3NT you bid 4♣. I'm in absolute agreement with Frances here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Agree with Richard but also agree with the rest that you would have a really hard time convincing me that 4H should be forcing. No it shouldn't! In either case 4NT seems clear as quantitative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 clear quantitative and clear pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Richard, you basically know the same as I do. Me and pard agreed to bid those pesky 18-20 1-suited hands with the 2NT rebid. That's as far as our agreements go. If these "highly non-standard methods" cause you confusion, just imagine opener rebid 3♦ instead. (The only thing that would change is the hand is a clear accept if you take 4NT as an invite.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Me and pard agreed to bid those pesky 18-20 1-suited hands with the 2NT rebid. That's as far as our agreements go. I think I have discovered the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 If you want to play exactly 4 HEarts opposite a hand with 18-20 HCPS and long diamonds, even opposite a misfit why don´t you bid 4 Heart after 2 NT? Because maybe partner was going to cooperate and cue for hearts? You didn't know he had a misfit for hearts until he bid 3N. edit: ok shoulda continued reading the post seems like several people said this. Didn't mean to jump on you :) FWIW I think this is an obvious pass, our diamonds are not solid opposite a stiff and we have minimum points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Me and pard agreed to bid those pesky 18-20 1-suited hands with the 2NT rebid. That's as far as our agreements go. I think I have discovered the problem. dont be silly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 So many of these posts we rabbit away and never find out what the hand was. I want to know if I made my 6NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Why don't you add the following structure to your system Nuno? 1♦ 1♠2N GF, no side suit (if long •, not necessarily balanced) 3C relay3D 6+D, does not deny 3M3M 3-cards, 53323oM singleton3N 533-2M 1♦ 1M2N 3D encouraging, D fit (3M = cue, 4• = minorwood) 3M 6+ suit 4M 6+ 1-loser suit, nothing special on the side JS splinter for D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 I want to know if I made my 6NT. I'll give you something better than an answer to that in a couple hours :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Why don't you add the following structure to your system Nuno? Thanks. I'll give it a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 So many of these posts we rabbit away and never find out what the hand was. I want to know if I made my 6NT. Will you feel better if everyone but you agrees it was the wrong bid but you made it anyway? :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 So many of these posts we rabbit away and never find out what the hand was. I want to know if I made my 6NT. Will you feel better if everyone but you agrees it was the wrong bid but you made it anyway? :rolleyes: Everyone? If I make 6NT and partner had what I thought he had, then I don't care what a few other people thought. If partner's hand is completely different and I make a 10% slam, then I am not impressed by my success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 So many of these posts we rabbit away and never find out what the hand was. I want to know if I made my 6NT. Will you feel better if everyone but you agrees it was the wrong bid but you made it anyway? :rolleyes: Everyone? Yes, everyone who has offered an opinion on the matter, most of them quite strongly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Allright, here are the hands ♠ Q76♥ AJ8543♦ 8♣ AJ6 ♠ AJ2♥ 9♦ AKQT42♣ K97 and you get to pick which contract you'd prefer to be in :) Best is probably 3NT or 6♦. Me and pard ended up in 7♦(!!) after a mix-up, but the good news is LHO did "lead a trump vs grand slams" and that ate up his pard's ♦J9xx :P After the hearts were 3-3, the grand made... lol. Anyway, thx all for your opinions. 4NT was indeed intended as quantitative, as most of you suggested. There isn't much sense in it being RKCB in a misfit, right? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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