Nebulous 1D

[cwiggins]

BTW, has anyone experimented with the 1♦-1♥ relay in Viking?

 

No, but we played 1D 1H in Symmetric as either natural, or as a GF relay.

In Symmetric relay the 1D opening shows ANY 2-3 suited hand without a 5 card Major; and 2C/D openings show a 6 card suit, no Major - very effective! (Roy Kerr has changed this a bit in the latest version of Symmetric, however).

The version of Symmetric that I could find on-line was from November 2000. Is "the latest version of Symmetric" available someplace?

 

Symmetric's solution is like and not like mikestar's suggestion.

 

It is like mikestar in that balanced hands are opened either 1NT (11-14) or 1♣ (which shows 15+ HCP).

 

It is unlike mikestar in that 1♦ is nebulous, but it is nebulous in a different way than it is in "normal" Precision.

[the hog]

Chris,

Roy Kerr had a version on his web site where he was selling his Symmetric bidding tool:

www.bridge2symmetric.com

 

I looked at this site today and it appears out of action. I don't know whether he is keeping it up.

 

In the old symmetric

1D 1H

1S = S + a minor or a black 3 suiter

1N = H + a minor or a red 3 suiter

2C = long C 4D

2D = long D 4C

2H = 3H, stiff S and 54 in the ms either way.

[hrothgar]

Chris,

Roy Kerr had a version on his web site where he was selling his Symmetric bidding tool:

www.bridge2symmetric.com

 

I looked at this site today and it appears out of action. I don't know whether he is keeping it up.

Pity that

 

I bought a copy of B2S a couple years ago

Found it very useful

 

Unique product idea.

[Cascade]

Symmetric Relays are really an appendage to a system rather than a system in their own right.

 

I have played at various times

 

Forcing Pass with Symmetric Relays

Transfer Openings with Symmetric Relays

and Standard Symmetic Relay which is really a variant of Precision with Symmetric Relays added on.

 

I am not sure exactly what Roy is doing with 1♦. I recall that I changed to playing 1NT as the relay over a 1♦ opening after a long discussion with Roy. I know that Roy has experimented with many front ends to symmetric that is why he developed his bridge2symmetric program. I think I still have an old DOS version of engine of that software that Roy sent to me several years ago.

 

These are the relays that I currently play over 1♦ 1NT GF relay

 

2♣ shows hearts

2♦ shows minor two-suiters thereafter the relays are up one step compared to standard symmetric relays for two-suiters

2♥ shows clubs and spades and standard two suited relays follow over 2♠

2♠ shows a black three suiter

2NT and higher show diamonds and spades and follow standard symmetric relays for two suiters

 

over

 

...

2♣  2♦ relay

 

2♥ shows clubs and hearts and standard two suited relays follow over 2♠

2♠ shows a red two three suiter

2NT and higher show diamonds and hearts and follow standard symmetric relays for two suiters

 

Two Suiter Relays

 

2NT shortage in higher other suit

3♣ equal shortage 11 or 22

3♦ 5431 lower shortage

3♥ 6421 lower shortage

3♠ 6430 lower shortage

3NT 7420 lower shortage

 

over 3♣ equal shortage

 

3♦ = 7411 rare hand type

3♥ = 5422 and zoom into controls

 

Wayne

 

PS

 

Roy has been seen from time to time on BBO

[the hog]

Chris, I looked up my notes: in Kerr's new version 1D 1N is a GF relay rather than 1H being either natural or relay.

 

Over that:

• 2C: Clubs, possibly a black 3-suiter.

• 2D: 4+ Clubs & 5+ Diamonds

• 2H->: Diamonds, possibly a red 3-suiter.

 

That is the major difference; there are a few cosmetic differences.

 

"Symmetric Relays are really an appendage to a system rather than a system in their own right."

 

Not really sure if I agree with this. I have a copy of the original 1980 publication "The Symmetric Relay", by Walter Jones and Roy Kerr. It is a fully comprehensive system in its own right. It is certainly true as Wayne says that the symmetric engine has been used as a relay basis for many systems - Tres Boof, Scrape, Tosr, Scamp and Moscito to name just a few that come to mind.

[mikestar]

No doubt my viewpoint is colored by my different experience with 4-point NT ranges. I rather like them and often played 15-18 in 2 over 1. An occasional loss due to the wider range, an occasional gain by tightening the NT rebids. On the whole, a wash.

 

With any non-standard NT range you will have anti-field positions, I beleive these help you and hurt you about equally.

 

So to my mind, the tradeoff is 1♦ vs 2♣. If, as apparently most experts do, you find that widening the NT range is a big tradeoff, then the decison to use nebulous 1♦ is much more resonable, particularly the 2+ diamonds type. You will never convince me that opening ♠AJxx ♥KQxx ♦void ♣QJxxxx will lead to lasting happiness.

 

I suspect the extra point NT range causes more loss of accuracy for the expert who has a very high level of accuracy than it does for the average player.

 

In other words, the "right" tradeoffs vary from partnership to partnership, but are influenced by skill level.

[MarceldB]

Chris,

Roy Kerr had a version on his web site where he was selling his Symmetric bidding tool:

www.bridge2symmetric.com

 

I looked at this site today and it appears out of action. I don't know whether he is keeping it up.

Pity that

 

I bought a copy of B2S a couple years ago

Found it very useful

 

Unique product idea.

I bought a copy too of B2S 1,5 years ago.

Working with a Mac and Windows emulation was not ideal. Reason why I did not used this programm.

 

I have an additional PC now for such work only. If somebody has a template (Pass = 13+) to start with , that would be very helpfull.

 

Thanks,

Marcel