3H (pass) 5H

[gnasher]

Until tonight, I wouldn't have thought this question needed asking.

[rogerclee]

This is the most preemptive bid in the history of the universe.

[matmat]

This is the most preemptive bid in the history of the universe.

are you sure, Roger?

 

:)

[pclayton]

Its preemptive / tactical. It also has a good idea what to do over the opps next bid.

[inquiry]

I am not going to argue with the concept that it should be preemptive, but.....

 

I took a look at this auction on bridgebrowser. It occured in one very large database a total of 79 times....

 

The average hcp total for the 5H bid was 17.72, and counting distribution 19.63.

 

The strongest hand i saw actually had a heart void... A987 void AKQJT9 AK9, making five.

 

Five of the 79 hands were true raises of the preempts (6 to 11 hcp).

 

11 of them were slamish on 13-15 hcp (6 bid slam, 4 made).

 

The other 63 had 16 to 24 hcp (bellshape with most at 19 hcp (16) and 18 and 20 second and third most), 31 of them bid slam.. 18 made.

 

So, i think it is safe to say the most frequent use of this bid is not preemptive.

[Fluffy]

vul vs not it is not preemptive.

 

not vul vs vul its preemptive.

 

On the other 2 I'd say it is preemptive as well.

[whereagles]

I have this defined as preemptive in my book.

[mikestar]

Should be preemptive. With a slam try, responder can force and bid 5♥ next time.

 

When responder has a hand such that he knows that opponents can make 4♠ and 5♥ will be a good sac, he must be able to bid it immediately. If he is good enough to try for slam opposite a preempt, there is no hurry--the opponents will probably stay out.

[gnasher]

Preemptive 20

Slam try 0

 

Good. I'll revert to thinking that the question doesn't need asking.

[gwnn]

you do realize that there's no such thing as a unanimous poll... just wait and see

[Gerben42]

Until tonight, I wouldn't have thought this question needed asking.

 

I still think there is no need asking it. Shall we add the virtual 1 vote against from your partner? :)

[pclayton]

25-0. I would not have expected this to be unanimous.

 

Could this be the one?

[skjaeran]

Preemtive for me for sure.

I've got several other ways to go slamming. This is the only way to preempt at the 5-level.

[gwnn]

25-0. I would not have expected this to be unanimous.

 

Could this be the one?

no :( 28-1

[helene_t]

Ben's BB findings are schoking.

[brianshark]

I voted pre-emptive but wasn't too sure. The fact that the BBO forums have almost unanimously declared it pre-emptive but a significant majority of random BBO MBC users use it as slam try is an amazing discrepancy.

[skjaeran]

I voted pre-emptive but wasn't too sure. The fact that the BBO forums have almost unanimously declared it pre-emptive but a significant majority of random BBO MBC users use it as slam try is an amazing discrepancy.

Well, do we know anything about the level of those players in Bens survey compared to those voting in the poll here? I guess the level here is somewhat higher than in a random collection of players online.

[whereagles]

I voted pre-emptive but wasn't too sure. The fact that the BBO forums have almost unanimously declared it pre-emptive but a significant majority of random BBO MBC users use it as slam try is an amazing discrepancy.

I simply don't use it unless I clearly remember having discussed it with pard :)

[inquiry]

I voted pre-emptive but wasn't too sure. The fact that the BBO forums have almost unanimously declared it pre-emptive but a significant majority of random BBO MBC users use it as slam try is an amazing discrepancy.

For the record, the databases I searched above were not BBO MBC, but rather OKBridge hands. The reason, the very old okbridge database is much, much larger (covering several years). Bridgebrowser no longer adds okbridge hands to the databases, only BBO, and adds millions hands a month (on average).

 

I did however, do a BBO MBC database of over 10 million hands and found the same result. You can see a FLASH video of this search (3 minute video) at

FLASH VIDEO of 3H-pass-5H auctions showing results.

 

The fact the majority of players play this bid as invitiation does not mean that they are poor players. In fact, a fair number of the players had lehmans in the high sixties. It just means they are not as aggressive as posters here. After all, unlike us, they probably know the five level belongs to the opponents. :)

[ArtK78]

Preemptive. Any vulnerability.

 

The fact that any good player would play this as anything BUT preemptive would surprise me.

[whereagles]

The fact that any good player would play this as anything BUT preemptive would surprise me.

I think there's a good case for both definitions (invite or pree). Sometimes RKCB isn't enough to uncover the solidity of a suit: say you have

 

Ax

x

AKQJT9

Axxx

 

and pard opens a vuln 3♥. If you RKCB and get 5♦ as an answer, you won't get to know whether pard has KQxxxxx or KQJTxxx for a suit. If in this case you have 3-5 as invite, pard will know to pass with hand 1 and bid 6 with hand 2.

[skjaeran]

The fact that any good player would play this as anything BUT preemptive would surprise me.

I think there's a good case for both definitions (invite or pree). Sometimes RKCB isn't enough to uncover the solidity of a suit: say you have

 

Ax

x

AKQJT9

Axxx

 

and pard opens a vuln 3♥. If you RKCB and get 5♦ as an answer, you won't get to know whether pard has KQxxxxx or KQJTxxx for a suit. If in this case you have 3-5 as invite, pard will know to pass with hand 1 and bid 6 with hand 2.

You can make a cuebid and jump to 5♥ to ask for trump quality though.