thoughts please

[sceptic]

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sqt62hj873d82ckt5&w=sa95hakqt9dat94c4&e=skj43h6dj73cq9872&s=s87h542dkq65caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     Pass

 1♥    Pass  1♠    Pass

 2♦    Pass  Pass  Pass

 

[cherdano]

Well bid.

[benlessard]

In imps 2D is probably the best bid but In MP i prefer a 3S 3 card raise.

[Finch]

Four of me would have bid exactly the same way.

[Walddk]

Excellent auction; well done!

 

Roland

[ArtK78]

2♠ is much better than 2♦.

 

3♠ on that hand is too much. It might get you to game, but it will often get you to the wrong slam if partner has a good hand.

[cherdano]

2♠ is much better than 2♦.

I strongly disagree. Much better to bid 2♦, planning to bid 2♠ over the likely 2♥ correction. This gives a much better description of your strength AND your shape, it tends to show 3541 with extras (this hand is on top end of the range for that sequence).

[ArtK78]

2♠ is much better than 2♦.

I strongly disagree. Much better to bid 2♦, planning to bid 2♠ over the likely 2♥ correction. This gives a much better description of your strength AND your shape, it tends to show 3541 with extras (this hand is on top end of the range for that sequence).

The reason that I find that 2♠ is the better call is that it is more likely that partner will carry on towards game over 2♠ with any excuse.

 

Over 2♦, there will be many times when you wind up playing in 2♦ when partner has a preference for diamonds. This is particularly true at IMP scoring.

 

Sure, if partner rebids 2♥ or 2♠ the 2♦ bid may work out very nicely. But that doesn't always happen. In my experience, when I have a hand this good, partner will want to drop the bidding the first chance that he gets. So, with 5-2-3-3 (or 5-1-3-4 or even 5-1-2-5), he may pass 2♦ rather than take the false preference to 2♥. But when you raise spades, partner may take a push towards game, which, of course, you will accept.

[655321]

A pleasure to see a good auction.

[sceptic]

another question please,

 

I thought 2 diamonds was the right bid I should make, but I am a bit unsure of the correct continuation afterwards

 

had my pard bid 2 hearts (OBVIOUSLY IF HE HAD A DIFFERENT HAND) what should 3 spade bid show? a splinter? extra strength (top of the range)

 

what would 2 spades show?, a patterned out hand and as strong as a 2 diamond bid could be without a jump initially?

[sceptic]

another question I have been asked is, why is 3 diamonds not the bid as a lot of people say they would automatically bid that as I am to strong for 2 diamonds

[firmit]

another question please,

 

I thought 2 diamonds was the right bid I should make, but I am a bit unsure of the correct continuation afterwards

 

had my pard bid 2 hearts (OBVIOUSLY IF HE HAD A DIFFERENT HAND) what should 3 spade bid show? a splinter? extra strength (top of the range)

 

what would 2 spades show?, a patterned out hand and as strong as a 2 diamond bid could be without a jump initially?

2♦ is also my choice.

 

1♥-1♠-2♦-2♥ followed by 3♠ does not really exist in my world. This because 3♠ would be splinter with hearts. But as long as 2♦ is non-forcing, the 3♠ bid can not exist because it would force to game (4♥). Also, as long as responder only promise 4 spades, I would not jump with 3 card support. So - I'd bid 2♠ if responder had corrected to 2♥, happily knowing I have described my hand perfectly.

 

another question I have been asked is, why is 3 diamonds not the bid as a lot of people say they would automatically bid that as I am to strong for 2 diamonds

I am not sure if SA(YC) allows jump-shift with 4, but I like it to be 5-5 and GF. You do not have GF values, so... 3♦ would be wrong.

 

But - then again - I don't know

[Walddk]

another question I have been asked is, why is 3 diamonds not the bid as a lot of people say they would automatically bid that as I am to strong for 2 diamonds

You have a good hand after the 1♠ response, but it is not quite good enough for a jump shift (game forcing). 2♦ shows 5-4 and 12-18; that's what you have.

 

A raise to 2♠ is sometimes best with just three but not with this hand. A simple raise shows a minimum hand (12-15). This hand belongs to the medium range (16-18). Change it to

 

Axx

KQxxx

Kxxx

x

 

and 2♠ is perfect (unless you live in France or Poland where they never support with three).

 

Roland

[cherdano]

another question please,

 

I thought 2 diamonds was the right bid I should make, but I am a bit unsure of the correct continuation afterwards

 

had my pard bid 2 hearts (OBVIOUSLY IF HE HAD A DIFFERENT HAND) what should 3 spade bid show? a splinter? extra strength (top of the range)

IMO this still shows 3541 shape (well could be 3550 or 3640 but certainly it has exactly 3 spades), but a supermax for 2♦. Maybe this hand is good enough; I would certainly do it with ♠AJx.

[ArtK78]

Many years ago I was playing in a Vanderbilt match against Marty Bergen and Larry Cohen. My partner had almost this exact hand on this auction. He bid 2♠ on the hand which became the final contract. For what it is worth, at the conclusion of the hand, Marty volunteered his approval of the bid.

[awm]

Bidding 2♠ on opener's hand misses way too many games. Give partner:

 

♠KQxxx

♥xx

♦xxx

♣xxx

 

You're odds-on for game. Think partner bids on over 1♥-1♠-2♠?

 

Opposite a five-card spade suit, the opener's hand is worth something like 20 hcp. Even if there's no eight-card spade fit, you want to be in game opposite many 8-counts. With a balanced or semi-balanced eight points and four spades you don't bid over 1♥-1♠-2♠.

 

Obviously there is a problem here, because you can miss a game when partner passes 2♦. But partner is much more likely to pass 2♠ (which is a limited bid and confirms a fit) rather than pass 2♦ (which is much wider-ranging and less likely to be a good fit).

 

Anyways, the auction is perfect playing normal methods. This type of thing is an advantage for Gazzilli or a strong club, where you have a way to show a "big hand with three spades."

[ArtK78]

Bidding 2♠ on opener's hand misses way too many games. Give partner:

 

♠KQxxx

♥xx

♦xxx

♣xxx

 

You're odds-on for game. Think partner bids on over 1♥-1♠-2♠?

 

Opposite a five-card spade suit, the opener's hand is worth something like 20 hcp. Even if there's no eight-card spade fit, you want to be in game opposite many 8-counts. With a balanced or semi-balanced eight points and four spades you don't bid over 1♥-1♠-2♠.

 

Obviously there is a problem here, because you can miss a game when partner passes 2♦. But partner is much more likely to pass 2♠ (which is a limited bid and confirms a fit) rather than pass 2♦ (which is much wider-ranging and less likely to be a good fit).

 

Anyways, the auction is perfect playing normal methods. This type of thing is an advantage for Gazzilli or a strong club, where you have a way to show a "big hand with three spades."

You recognize that you are going to miss game if partner rebids 2♦ as well. So this is hardly an argument for bidding 2♦. Even if responder bids 2♥ over 2♦ (would you?) he is certainly going to pass 2♠.

 

However, I have this question for you: What contract would you rather be in, 2♦ or 2♠?

[awm]

There are many hands including the example I gave which would pass 2♠ but will correct to 2♥ over 2♦ and then bid on over opener's 2♠ (showing extras). In general:

 

Passing 2♦ ---> 0-1♥, 4-5♠, 3-4♦, and at most 9 hcp

Passing 2♠ ---> Almost any hand with 4-5♠ and at most 9 hcp

 

So clearly there are many hands which pass 2♠ but would correct 2♦ to some other spot. There are few (if any!) hands which pass 2♦ and do not pass 2♠.

 

Over 1♥-1♠-2♦-2♥-2♠, opener has shown extras. Most hands with five spades will bid over this, as will any hand in the 8-9 hcp range.

 

As to "which partial would I rather be in" that depends a lot on responder's hand. If responder holds 4-1-4-4 or 5-1-4-3 shape, then it's a good bet that diamonds is a better partial. If responder holds 5-1-3-4 shape then spades is probably better. If responder holds 4-1-3-5 shape it depends on whether his spades are any good. And if responder has 2♥, then he won't generally be passing my 2♦ rebid (okay maybe if he has five diamonds and a really trashy hand).

[Fluffy]

If I was south I would had doubled 1♠, wich allows them to use support double and find their fit hehe.

[ArtK78]

Suffice to say that I don't agree.

[skjaeran]

I strongly agree with the sequence in the OP - well bid.

 

Btw, in a KO teams match tonight I held J9xxx x KQxx Kxx

Partner opened 1♥ and rebid 2♣ over my 1♠. I gave preference to 2♥ and partner then came back with (the hoped for) 2♠. At red and 21 down at half time I just jumped to game. Partner had AKx KQxxx J QJTx. When nothing nice happened in trumps I went down though. :)

[jdonn]

2♠ is much better than 2♦.

I strongly disagree. Much better to bid 2♦, planning to bid 2♠ over the likely 2♥ correction. This gives a much better description of your strength AND your shape, it tends to show 3541 with extras (this hand is on top end of the range for that sequence).

The reason that I find that 2♠ is the better call is that it is more likely that partner will carry on towards game over 2♠ with any excuse.

More likely to pass over the bid showing about 12-18 than the bid showing about 12-14?

 

Edit: Apologies I didn't see page 2 of the thread, didn't mean to stick my nose in and repeat what's already been said several times. Needless to say I completely agree with awm.

[MFA]

2♦ is the normal bid, but it certainly wouldn't be absurd to upgrade to a 3♦ rebid, though. Not just because I have 17 hcp and 3541, but because I have THESE 17 hcp and 3541. Give partner ♠Kxxxx out and we have play in 4♠.

 

Btw, before switching to strong club, I used to play 1♥-1♠,3♦-3♥ as "4th suit forcing", since 4♣>3NT. 4♣ would then be a slam try in ♥.

[Finch]

another question please,

 

I thought 2 diamonds was the right bid I should make, but I am a bit unsure of the correct continuation afterwards

 

had my pard bid 2 hearts (OBVIOUSLY IF HE HAD A DIFFERENT HAND) what should 3 spade bid show? a splinter? extra strength (top of the range)

 

what would 2 spades show?, a patterned out hand and as strong as a 2 diamond bid could be without a jump initially?

1H - 1S - 2D - 2H - ?

 

2S = a patterned out hand and as strong as a 2 diamond bid could be without a jump initially

 

3S = I don't think this really exists. I would expect some sort of 3550 or 3640 that forgot to bid 3D last round.

 

another question I have been asked is, why is 3 diamonds not the bid as a lot of people say they would automatically bid that as I am to strong for 2 diamonds

 

It is quite close, and depends a bit on your responsive style. Personally I would want the queen of spades or diamonds in addition before bidding 3D.

[P_Marlowe]

another question I have been asked is, why is 3 diamonds not the bid as a lot of people say they would automatically bid that as I am to strong for 2 diamonds

3D forces to game.

 

And just ask yourself if you want to commit

to game oppossite a min. 1S response, which

could be made on 6HCP (even less) and a

bal. shape, if you say, yes, I am strong enough,

than go ahead, but most would say no.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe