Guest Jlall Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 [hv=n=skxhkqxdakxxxckxx&s=saxxhajtxxxdxcaxx]133|200|[/hv][hv=n=skxhkqxdakxxxckxx&s=saxxhajtxxxdxcaxx]133|200|[/hv] Please give your auction for both sets of hands, north deals each time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 My auctions both start 1♦ 1♥2NT 3♣3♦ 3♥ North has shown 18-19 balanced, South has shown 6+♥, forcing. Hand (1) I would continue with RKCB as North, and bid 7 when all keycards are present. That works for this hand (that is no trick, we can all construct auctions to the best contract looking at both hands). I have no method to uncover South's shape, so as North I would pay off to 2632 and nothing extra. 7 should be a good spot in most other cases, perhaps needing diamonds no worse than 4-2, or a spade ruff (or diamonds 4-3 opposite 2613). Hand (2) I would also RKCB, but next bid after learning we have all the keycards is 5NT. South with nothing more will bid 6♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 1D 1H2N 3D*3S*4S*5H 5S*7H p 3D=5+ hearts, potentially to play 3H, 3S=my hand is too good to play 3H ever and I am cuebidding. 4S=keycard5S=trying for 7, confirming all keycards + trump queen7H=stand out with Kings, doubleton, 5 card suit, etc. Even if you catch partner with a doubleton spade you have the shot of ruffing out diamonds. For hand 2: 1D 1H2N 3D*3H 4S*5H 6H 3D=5+ hearts potentially to play 3H4S=keycard6H=not worth a try for 7 opposite an 18-19 bal that was willing to play 3H. Admittedly I will find 7 opposite Ax AJTxxx xxx Ax in the first auction and will miss 7 opposite Kxx KQx AKQJ xxx in the second one but I would consider both of those very unlucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 (edited) 1D 1H2NT 4D (self-agreeing splinter) and then: (1) 4S 5C 5D 5S 5NT 6C (1 of top 3) 7S From opener's point of view, any hand with three spades or seven hearts makes the grand slam cold. The worst responder might have is Ax Axxxxx x Axxx, when 7S needs diamonds 4-3 or a squeeze; with this hand responder might have shown clubs over 2NT anyway. (2) 4H 4S 5C 6Hor 4H 4S 5C 5H 6H With a much worse hand, opener signs off over 4D, but will bid slam once responder makes a further move, even if responder pusillanimously signs off. I really dislike the auctions suggested by 655321 and jdonn, where responder takes control with RKCB. Blackwood is for finding out whether we have enough controls, but the main question on this hand is whether we have enough tricks. It therefore merits a descriptive, cooperative sequence. Edited January 13, 2008 by gnasher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I really dislike the auctions suggested by 655321 and jdonn, where responder takes control with RKCB. Hey, no problem that you disagree, I am sure there are better ways of bidding the hand than my auction. :) I play that 4♦ is ♦, slam interest, so I don't have an auto-splinter in my armoury here. In addition I cue first and seconds, so I could not confidently bid a grand via a cue-bidding auction without checking on Aces. Finally, opener not responder bids RKCB when responder has shown 6+ ♥ and slam interest, and opener can count the tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I am on the gnasher line of action, but the decision to bid 4♥ or 4♠ with each hand is close and I couldn't tell what I would actually do at the table wich each one. I think I would just bid 4♥ with both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 In addition I cue first and seconds, so I could not confidently bid a grand via a cue-bidding auction without checking on Aces.So do I, but in this case both partners know that a black-suit singleton is impossible, and each of them is looking at one black-suit control, so they have no doubt about what their partner's cue bid shows. I agree, though, that on other deals there may be a problem in distinguishing between first- and second-round controls. A partial solution is to play 5NT in a cue-bidding auction as RKCB rather than GSF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetteriLem Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 1st hand 1♦ 17+ - 1NT 5+♥ not 5332, 8+ 3♥ 18-19bal 3-4support - 4NT rkcb 5♠ - 5NT 7♥ 2nd hand the same except opener could deny invite to 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Both times Opener starts 1♦. The first is close to a 2NT opening and might be opened 2NT with some body. But, the body is not shown and assumed not present. Also, I would technically prefer a 1♣ opening on both, as I prefer 1♦ to guarantee an unbalanced hand. But, for normal stuff, 1♦. 1♦-P-1♥-P-2NT looks right. I like the idea of 4♦ as a self-splinter. The main reason is that Responder wants to answer with Aces and spaces. It's a tad rich for a self-splinter, though. If it works, Opener has a roadmap. If a self-splinter and then 4♠ after 4♥ demands asking, that works also. A more mundane 3♥ is probable, though. After Opener super-accepts, Responder would like to force Opener to ask with a 4♠ call, but I would take that as Exclusion RKCB. South unfortunately ends up asking the questions. After 4♣ by Opener, super-accepting with a club control, a creative solution is for Responder to bid 4♦ LTTC. That might again get Opener to ask the questions. If not, forced to ask from South. I agree with the others that many auctions require North to value his AKxxx properly in the grand auction, if he is willing to play a grand on a 4-3 split or squeeze. There are a few variations where South must upgrade the sixth heart, not yet shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 #1. 1D-1H2N-3H (forcing)3S-4C4D-4S5C-5D5H-5S6D-7H #2 1D-1H2N-3H (forcing)4H-4N5S-5N (extras?)6H IMO, the key issue in these hand types is opener's first call after the fit has been discovered - the cue bid should announce an improved hand due to the fit - or another way to say this is the cue bid announces a hand that has slammish potential. But then I also believe good cue bidding is more art than science, and thus it takes a good partnership to be truly effective in these auctions. (i.e., notice the trust in auction #1 where responder bids 7H, knowing opener would not try for grand with doubtful trumps.) The negative of this approach is it is more difficult to have a cooperative cue-bidding auction when one bidder holds a solid trump suit - without an ability to know about a solid suit, partner is nervous to cooperate in cue bidding without adequate trump support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 With some partners I'd have a long relay auction, which probably isn't interesting to anyone but would unambiguously reach the top spot. Elianna and I probably bid: 1♦ - 1♥2NT - 3♥(1)3♠(2) - 4♣(2)4NT(3) - 5♦(4) (1) 6+♥ and forcing; slam interest(2) Cuebid(3) 1430 Keycard(4) Three keycards At this point the two hands diverge. On the first hand opener bids 7♥. Opener can count six heart tricks, two clubs, two spades, two diamonds, and a thirteenth trick on a spade ruff. Admittedly this creates a problem with exactly 2-6-3-2 shape opposite and no ♦Q in responder's hand. Perhaps a clever course is to ask for a spade control (5♠) and then bid the grand when partner denies third-round control there? Anyways I think I'd just bid seven at the table. On the second hand, opener bids 5NT showing all the keycards and asking if partner has extras anywhere. Since partner's hand is basically completely described (six hearts, three aces) this leads to stopping in 6NT (opener will correct after partner's signoff, since 12 tops can be counted). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgeerkens Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 The second North hand, with 4333 and no high spots in the blacks or diamonds, is simply not worth it's supposed 18 count. Therefore I subtract 1 point, treat it as a 17 pointer, and open it 1NT. I believe that partner has a much easier time in the long run knowing that my NT hands are either not 4333, or have an extra point or feature to make up for the flaw. Essentially, treating these hands at face value widens your NT ranges, making partner's decisions more difficult. Similarly the first North hand, with it's nice 5 bagger in diamonds, is just shy of a 2NT opening. Throw in a couple of ten's in the minors and I would open it 2NT. Therefore, far from being nearly identical hand, these hand diverge in strength by almost a complete NT range - the jump to 2NT rebid. However if one ended up in 7H on the second hand, it only takes West having 5+ diamonds to make on a compound squeeze, a 33% shot. If a couple of 10's in the North hand had caused one to upgrade it back to 18 points, additional guard squeeze possibilities arise, if one can read them. Not the worst grand I ever expect to be in. PG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 #1 1D..... - 1H 2NT.... - 3H 3S (1) - 3NT (2) 4C (3) - 4NT (4) 5S (4) - 5NT (4) 6C (4) - 6D (5) 7H (5) (1) Cue for hearts,showing a top spade honor(2) strong relay (call it serious 3NT)(3) Cue(4) RKCB: 2 Key Cards + Queen, King of Clubs(5) additional values, loosing nerves and King of Diamonds needs to be enough #2 same auction, -1 Maybe I get to play against me, and maybe I am in the same situation as yesterday, and than it will be =. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 It's easy to bid these looking at all hands, but I think I'd hit the target in both partnerships. I know Meckwell has a really cool toy in cases like this. I'm pretty sure in certain auctions after Opener shows some sort of strong balanced hand after Responder's heart call that responder can "answer" key cards without Opener asking. I'm curious if they can pull this off after responder makes a splinter. 1A. With Matt: 1♦* - 1♥1N** - 2♣*** 2N - 3♥3♠**** - 4♣**** 4♦**** - 4♠***** 5♥ - 5♠7♥ * - Usually unbalanced (5♦332 17-19 is the only exception)** - Strong, 16+, many hand types. *** - 8+, waiting**** - cuebids***** - kickback 1B. With Harv: 1♦ - 1♥2N - 3♥3♠ - 4♣4♦ - 4♠5♥ - 5♠7♥ 4♠ is again kickback 2A. With Matt: 1♣* - 1♦**1N *** - 2♦****2♥ - 3♥3♠ - 4♣4♦ - 4♠5♥ - 5♠5N***** - 6♦******6♥ - 6N * - 2+ if balanced** - hearts*** - 17-19 balanced**** - xyz - art. GF, but denying semi-solid hearts***** - (after kickback like above) - ♠K****** - Last Train. I can count 12 tricks but not 13. Anything you haven't told me about? 2B. With Harvey: 1♦ - 1♥2N - 3♥3♠ - 4♣4♦ - 4♠5♥ - 5♠5N - 6♦6♥ - pass 6♦ is Last Train - similar as above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Now for something completely different: 1st hand====== 2♦ 18-bad 20 balancedish - 2NT weak clubs or hearts and a shortage 3♣ Forced - 3♦ hearts with diamond shortage 3♥ heart fit but not the nuts - 3NT serious slam interest with spade control 4♠ RKCB - 4NT 0 or 3 5♠ any extras (5♣ asks trump queen; 5♦ asks kings so this asked for something else like the 6th trump) - 7♥ Yes probably sixth trump since i might have cue-bid a queen 2nd hand====== 2♦ 18-bad 20 balancedish - 2NT weak clubs or hearts and a shortage 3♣ Forced - 3♦ hearts with diamond shortage 3♥ heart fit but not the nuts - 3NT serious slam interest with spade control 4♣ club control (south is much weaker and at this point wouldn't take control) - 5♣ club control 5♦ diamond ace - 6♥ Not really sure here but partner can't have ... ♠ KQx♥ KQx♦ Axxx♣ KQx or the equivalent as she would have done something more exciting than 3♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Of course symmetric relay works quite well: 1st and 2nd hands====== 1♣ Strong 16+ - 1♥ 5+ hearts GF 1♠ relay - 2NT single-suited diamond shortage 3♣ relay - 3♥ 3=6=1=3 3♠ relay - 4♠ six controls A=2 K=1 at this point the first hand can bid 7♥ and the second hand would continue relaying looking for a non-existent queen. Actually I run out of room to determine exactly. 4NT relay - 5♦ one heart honour 5♥ relay - 6♦ spade honour, club honour, heart jack, no second spade honour 6NT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Since everyone else is giving normalish auctions, i will give the auction using the method mishovnbg convinced me to try, where a new minor at the two level by opener is FORCING one round, and a jump rebid to 2NT by opener at his second opportunity is "JACOBY 2NT by OPENER" promising strong 4 card raise (and thus is not available on these two hands). After the new minor forcing, responder with GF hand with a two suiter, or with a one suiter plus support (3 card or more) for partners first suit, transfers to the second suit and then rebids the first suit (an exception for 4 cards in a second major since as opener will not have 4 cards in unbid major when using the new minor force thingee). Let's see how this works. There is a bid to show 5332 type hands by transfering to 3NT. So responders one suiters are six or longer. [hv=n=skxhkqxdakxxxckxx&s=saxxhajtxxxdxcaxx]133|200|1♦ - 1♥2♣* - 3♦&3♥^ - 3♠$4NT - 4♣7♥ *forcing, either long strong diamonds without 3 card heart support, or balance 17+, or strongish club/diamond two suiter. & transfer to hearts, GF, slam try. Opener does not have to complete transfer^ sets trumps, opener must be balanced in theory --see types of hands$ cue-bid followed by RKCB Here opener knows, responder has at most 5 cards in the minor, and at least 6 hearts. IF opener has 3♠, the 13 th trick is a ♠ ruff in dummy. If opener has less than 3♠, he will be 2-6-2-3 or have 7+♥s. With the 2-6-2-3 hand, he can setup a long diamond for 13th trick. If at matchpoints, he can use the auction below to try to find a queen or 7th heart in responders hand for 7NT.[/hv] [hv=n=skxhkqxdakxxxckxx&s=saxxhajtxxxdxcaxx]133|200|1♦ - 1♥2♣* - 3♦&3♥^ - 3♠$4NT - 4♣7♥ *forcing, either long strong diamonds without 3 card heart support, or balance 17+, or strongish club/diamond two suiter. & transfer to hearts, GF, slam try. Opener does not have to complete transfer^ sets trumps, opener must be balanced in theory --see types of hands$ cue-bid followed by RKCB Here opener knows, responder has at most 5 cards in the minor, and at least 6 hearts. IF opener has 3♠, the 13 th trick is a ♠ ruff in dummy. If opener has less than 3♠, he will be 2-6-2-3 or have 7+♥s. With the 2-6-2-3 hand, he can setup a long diamond for 13th trick. If at matchpoints, he can use the auction below to try to find a queen or 7th heart in responders hand for 7NT.[/hv] On the downside, no one I know plays this method anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhall Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 It seems to me that both cases could start 1♦-1♥2N-3♥ GF with 6+ ♥4♦ ♦A, slam interest in ♥, denying a black A Cuebidding a K opposite probable shortness, when an A is available, requires some delicate agreements to avoid confusion when partner later cues the suit. Is the second cue a stiff? or the A? The auction might continue 4♦-4N5♠-5N6♠ with a potential ♠ ruff, or 6N without. But I don't know many partnerships that would "read" 6♠ this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Lack of a diamond cue from opener can inhibit responder from driving to grand slam with the 2nd hand. That's as far as I might go at table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted January 16, 2008 Report Share Posted January 16, 2008 I cannot. I end up in 6h on both or 7H on both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted January 16, 2008 Report Share Posted January 16, 2008 In my own Fantunes it is nice to start with 1♦ with the 5332 and with 1♣ with the 4333 hand: 1♦ - 1♠!1NT* - 2♣+2NT - 3♣%3♥ ! ♥* 18++ GF% Checkback Responder knows 18+ with 5♦3♥32, will ask for Aces, Kings and the ♥Q and bid 7. 1♣! - 1♠*2♦+ - 4♦% ! Could be short* ♥+ GF, 3-card support% Splinter This will brake North of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASkolnick Posted January 16, 2008 Report Share Posted January 16, 2008 1♦-1H♥2N-3♥3♠-4♣ (Cuebid, we do cuebid Kings or Aces below games not singletons4NT-5♦ (3 Keycards)7♥ Same except I can't count 13 tricks with AKxx of diamonds.So 6♥ instead of 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted January 16, 2008 Report Share Posted January 16, 2008 1.1♦ - 1♥1NT - 2♣2♠ - 3♥3♠ - 3NT4♣ - 4NT5♠ - 5NT6♦ - 7♥ 1NT=5332 18-19, 2♣=asking, 2♠=2353, cuebids, serious 3NT, RKCB, GS inv, ♦K, 13 winners. 2.1♣ - 1♦1♥ - 2♦3NT - 4♣4♦ - 4NT5♠ - 5NT6♣ - 6♥ 1♦=trf, 2♦=GF, 3NT=18-19 3♥, 4♣=cue agreeing ♥.When north can't bid anything but 6♣ and pass there can't be a grand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted January 16, 2008 Report Share Posted January 16, 2008 Although Phil is correct that we have a nice gadget for the 5♦332 hand, it would not be as easy if the minors were switched. It would be difficult to tell a 2335 from a 3334 with the same honors. I can't answer unbiasedly that we'd get to the right spot on both with the minors switched. In my other partnership, if given an uncontested relay, I'd like to think it wouldn't be so difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 I've thought about these hands some more. I have one question for most of the bidders (although Jdonn mentioned a similar problem). If you are not relaying out exact shape, how are you bidding the same hands with South holding: ♠Ax♥AJTxxx♦x♣Axxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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