Acol: Opener's third bid

[helene_t]

Hmmm ... if it goes

1♦-1♥

1♠-1NT

2♣*

the fourth suit is natural. Roland's second example

1♥-1NT

2♠-3♣

3♦*

makes sense to play as artificial, although it wouldn't have occurred to me at first sight. I wonder if I will always be able to decide :)

[nick_s]

I would play both 3♣ and s♦ as game forcing. 3♦ would imply nothing in clubs - probably a stiff, and at least Hx in diamonds.

I would bid 3♣ because I want partner to bid 3NT with Hxx in clubs and an otherwise suitable hand. If I bid 3♦, I would only expect partner to bid 3NT if he thought there was a decent chance of making the contract opposite a stiff club.

[Walddk]

Hmmm ... if it goes

1♦-1♥

1♠-1NT

2♣*

the fourth suit is natural.

I am not so sure that 2♣ is natural on that auction. Say I have this hand:

 

KQxx

AJx

AQJxx

x

 

Then I would like 2♣ to be 4th suit to see if responder has five hearts. Can't I just bid 2♥ you may ask? That would not show extras in my methods, and I can't jump to 3♥ without committing to game. I might bid 2♥ on

 

Kxxx

Axx

KQxxx

x

 

No guarantee of a 5-3 fit, I know, but that doesn't bother me. 1NT may play better if responder has longer clubs than hearts, perhaps also if he is 4-4, but a 4-3 fit at the 2-level usually plays quite well. The hand is also suit-oriented with an ace and two kings.

 

However, if I have slow values, I will likely pass 1NT.

 

KJxx

QJx

AJ10xx

J

 

So as a general rule the 4th suit is fsf if we have bid three suits naturally. That's the best agreement in my opinion, and it also makes it easier to remember.

 

Roland

[bhall]

40+ years ago I played a very similar style, but the 2♦ bid promised both 9+ HCP and 11+ total points. The sequence as given

 

1♠-2♦

2♥

 

was forcing one round, but the 2♠ rebid by responder showed a "defective" limit raise, such as xxx or honor-x. With worse, responder would underbid with 1N. It certaily denied the values for an invitational 2N rebid. A hand such as 10x Qxx AKJxx xxx would (barely) qualify.

 

If that were the style, I would simply bid 4♠ over 2♠.

 

While 3♣ would have been forcing, it would imply either a high card or length there, and thus entail some risk of landing in the wrong spot.

[jtfanclub]

I assume responder has shown 9-11 with a doubleton spade and no club stopper.

 

I don't think there's anything about a club stopper in there. IMHO, 1♠-2♦-2♥-2NT shouldn't be done with a 9 count.

 

3♣ seems obvious.

 

It still amazes me that you must respond 2-o-1 on a 9 count. 2NT rebid (15-17) by opener is GF you say. I think that is mainstream in Acol-land, but it doesn't make sense that the partnersip is committed to game with 15 opposite a possible 9.

 

But it's not 'a possible 9'. It's 'a possible 9 that would force game across a 15-17 1NT opener'. The 9 counts that would not force game across a 15-17 1NT opener respond 1NT. In fact, I'd argue that the bids aren't based on responder's HCP at all.

 

Want to be in game across a balanced 15 count? Bid a new suit at the 2 level.

Want to be in game across a balanced 18 count but not a 15 count? Bid 1NT.

Don't want to be in game across a balanced 18 count? Pass.

 

It's a great concept.

 

The system is seriously flawed.

 

Assume for the moment that the auction would go:

 

1♠-1NT-2♥-2♠ in 2/1

 

Do you feel that you're better positioned for your third bid than your would be in ACOL?

 

This part of ACOL is far superior to 2/1, IMHO.

[EricK]

I think you should just bid 2NT on the third round. This must show extras - with a minimum hand you would pass 2♠ - and it gives partner an opportunity to show 3 card ♠ length or extra length in ♦. It is true you don't have a ♣ stop, but if partner does not have 3♠ or 4♥ or 6♦ then he has at least 3♣ himself and might very well have enough to give you a full stop.

 

If partner passes 2NT then the chances are that 3NT is a very touch and go contract, with opps setting up enough ♣ tricks before you can set up your nine.

[NickToll]

According to David Bird and Tim Bourke ("Tournament Acol"), both 2♠ and 3♠ rebids are non forcing: 2♠ shows a minimum 2-over-1 and usually a doubleton spade, whereas 3♠ is invitational with a reasonable three- or even four-card fit. To force in spades, one needs to bid 3♣ FSF, then support spades. This fits well with the traditional ACOL style, that encourages limit bids.

 

Accepting the sensible agreement that 2♦ guarantees game facing a strong notrump, 3♣ by opener seems acceptable: good hand, suggesting 3NT if partner has a club stop.

[Cascade]

Opps are silent. Matchpoints, intermediate opps, heterogenous field.

 

1♠-2♦

2♥-2♠

?

 

1♠ promised 4+, rules of 20. Major 4-card usually precedes minor.

2♦ is 9+. A natural NF 2N was available. Not sure how often this p would be 2♠ on a 3-card, club style varies with respect to this and I don't know him that well.

 

2♥ forcing for one round. 2N would have been 15-17 GF.

Responder has shown invitational values with a spade preference (2 or 3 spades for me - 3♠ would have shown three spades and been forcing).

 

There is a case for any advance to be forcing.

 

I'd bid 3♣ to show extra values and express doubt about the final denomination - 4th suit forcing.

[Cascade]

According to David Bird and Tim Bourke ("Tournament Acol"), both 2♠ and 3♠ rebids are non forcing: 2♠ shows a minimum 2-over-1 and usually a doubleton spade, whereas 3♠ is invitational with a reasonable three- or even four-card fit. To force in spades, one needs to bid 3♣ FSF, then support spades. This fits well with the traditional ACOL style, that encourages limit bids.

This seems inefficient to me - we use two bids for the narrow (9)10-11(12) range and have no bid to immediately set trumps and start a slam investigation.

 

1♠ 2♦

2♥ 3♣

3NT 4♠ ...

 

we have already lost a round of bidding and it could easily be worse if we think our hand is too good to bid just 4♠.

 

1♠ 2♦

2♥ 2♠ - I am only invitational

 

1♠ 2♦

2♥ 3♠ - I have enough for game/slam. Over this we play serious and fivolous slam tries.

 

seems much simpler and more efficient.

 

We play 2♥ is forcing and wide-ranging and as a consequence we almost never bid ...

 

1♠ 2♦

2♥ 4♠

 

For us this would be a sort of picture bid showing minimum game values with decent diamonds and maybe a spade card and no side control - ace, king, singleton or void.

[mike777]

AQJ9x

AKJx

xx

Jx

 

Opps are silent. Matchpoints, intermediate opps, heterogenous field.

 

1♠-2♦

2♥-2♠

?

 

1♠ promised 4+, rules of 20. Major 4-card usually precedes minor.

2♦ is 9+. A natural NF 2N was available. Not sure how often this p would be 2♠ on a 3-card, club style varies with respect to this and I don't know him that well.

 

2♥ forcing for one round. 2N would have been 15-17 GF.

 

Edit: Sorry, for the 3♦ answer I should have distinguished between a forcing and a non-forcing 3♦

what hand does this typically show in acol?...I assume there is some standard, often hand?

 

I assume 3c is pretty standard here?

[Zelandakh]

I would bid 3♣ too.

 

My own preference for this type of auction in acol is for 2/1 responses to be 10+ and forcing to 2NT. 1♠ - 2m - 3♥ shows a GF hand with at least 5-5 majors. Also, any suit rebid by opener after a 1M opening promises a 5 card suit. On responder's rebid, I like simple preference to be 2-3 card support and a minimum, with a jump raise being GF with 3-card support.

 

So the auction 1♠ - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♣ shows precisely 5-4 majors (or very rarely could start a ♠ slam try with 6+) and asks responder to pick their game.

 

(-: Zel :-)

[lexlogan]

I'm curious about what opener has shown after 1♠-2♦-2♥. Does this promise 5+-4+ ? How would opener bid with 4-4 and 15-17 ? Rebid 2NT and depend upon responder to show hearts if he's got them? Or rebid 2♥ and plan to suggest notrump later if partner goes back to spades?

[Cascade]

I'm curious about what opener has shown after 1♠-2♦-2♥. Does this promise 5+-4+ ? How would opener bid with 4-4 and 15-17 ? Rebid 2NT and depend upon responder to show hearts if he's got them? Or rebid 2♥ and plan to suggest notrump later if partner goes back to spades?

With 4=4=3=2 or 4=4=2=3 and 15-17 hcp most modern Acol (weak NT; 4-card Major) players would open 1♥ and rebid 2NT after a two over one response.

[Echognome]

I'm curious about what opener has shown after 1♠-2♦-2♥. Does this promise 5+-4+ ? How would opener bid with 4-4 and 15-17 ? Rebid 2NT and depend upon responder to show hearts if he's got them? Or rebid 2♥ and plan to suggest notrump later if partner goes back to spades?

4-4 majors opens 1♥ instead of 1♠ if out of NT range.

[lexlogan]

I'm curious about what opener has shown after 1♠-2♦-2♥. Does this promise 5+-4+ ? How would opener bid with 4-4 and 15-17 ? Rebid 2NT and depend upon responder to show hearts if he's got them? Or rebid 2♥ and plan to suggest notrump later if partner goes back to spades?

With 4=4=3=2 or 4=4=2=3 and 15-17 hcp most modern Acol (weak NT; 4-card Major) players would open 1♥ and rebid 2NT after a two over one response.

OK, good, I've always thought 1♥ was more logical than 1♠ with 4-4; now how do you respond over 1♥ with 4 spades, 5+ diamonds and sufficient strength for a 2♦ bid? 1♠ unless strong enough to force to game? Or 2♦, planning to rebid 2♠ but willing to rebid 3♠ over 2NT since opener has promised a game force?

[Cascade]

I'm curious about what opener has shown after 1♠-2♦-2♥. Does this promise 5+-4+ ? How would opener bid with 4-4 and 15-17 ? Rebid 2NT and depend upon responder to show hearts if he's got them? Or rebid 2♥ and plan to suggest notrump later if partner goes back to spades?

With 4=4=3=2 or 4=4=2=3 and 15-17 hcp most modern Acol (weak NT; 4-card Major) players would open 1♥ and rebid 2NT after a two over one response.

OK, good, I've always thought 1♥ was more logical than 1♠ with 4-4; now how do you respond over 1♥ with 4 spades, 5+ diamonds and sufficient strength for a 2♦ bid? 1♠ unless strong enough to force to game? Or 2♦, planning to rebid 2♠ but willing to rebid 3♠ over 2NT since opener has promised a game force?

It depends on how you play responder's reverse:

 

How do you play

 

1♥ 2♦

2♥ 2♠?

 

I play this as invitational or better and a one-round force but some play it as game forcing. If I am strong enough for this I bid 2♦ if not then I bid 1♠.

 

If instead opener rebids 2NT showing 15+ then I have an easy 3♠ to check for a spade fit.

 

1♥ 2♦

2NT 3♠ ...

 

There is a slight problem if you have clubs instead of diamonds as then

 

1♥ 2♣

2♦ 2♠ would be forth suit forcing and not necessarily show spades. Theoretically opener could be 4=5=4=0 and you could miss your spade fit. With that hand opener can raise to 3♠ but you would need to discussion to be sure this absolutely guarantees four spades.

[1eyedjack]

I think you are borderline for wanting to GF, given the constraints of the system, and I think that some of those who bid 4S or 3C are doing so by shoehorning their own preferred methods onto the preceding auction.

 

So I went for 3S and I am not too bothered whether partner treats it as forcing or not. You have shown your shape and you have also shown your extras. Partner may rate you for a 6th Spade, but I think should be alert to your problems without a Club guard and perhaps insufficient for 3C, and if the Clubs are badly stopped (one stop may not be enough) then a 5-2 Spade fit is not the end of the world.

 

EDIT:

Slightly surprised no-one went for 3D - not an unreasonable choice I think.