does this exist?

[gwnn]

1NT-2♦-4♥

 

Can a nice 5♥332 16.5-17 count bid 4♥? Is it winning bridge?

 

(let's assume no 6322 or any other funny things)

[pclayton]

I've seen this call made successfully, but the hand that wants to bid 4♥ is probably too strong for a 1N opening.

[jdonn]

I've seen this call made twice before. It failed miserably one time with 4♥ down 2 in a desperate effort to make when 3♥ was cold, and broke even the other time since responder always had a game bid over 3♥. It DNE with good players as far as I'm concerned.

 

The last time partner transfered to my five card major, I bid 2♥ and played it there happily. They don't know to balance if you don't tell them how big your fit is on these auctions, which is why I hate with a passion 'always' superaccepting in some way with four.

[mikeh]

DNE

 

How can one possibly hold a 1N opener that is too strong for a super-accept?

 

I guess if one plays that one must super-accept with any 4 card support, you might feel pressure to super-super accept with a maximum,, but I have never seen the advantage of the 'always super-accept' approach: in fact I believe it to be silly bridge. It 'works' only when you want to preempt the opps, while it destroys your game and slam bidding since responder has no clue whether you are a soft 15 3433 or a control rich 16-17 4432 (oh, I know that some players like to tell the opps where their doubleton is and so on, but the 'strength' part is still valid even for those). After I open 15-17 1N and both opps pass at their 1st (and sometimes 2nd) opportunity, preempting is not uppermost on my mind :)

[mike777]

DNE

 

How can one possibly hold a 1N opener that is too strong for a super-accept?

 

I guess if one plays that one must super-accept with any 4 card support, you might feel pressure to super-super accept with a maximum,, but I have never seen the advantage of the 'always super-accept' approach: in fact I believe it to be silly bridge. It 'works' only when you want to preempt the opps, while it destroys your game and slam bidding since responder has no clue whether you are a soft 15 3433 or a control rich 16-17 4432 (oh, I know that some players like to tell the opps where their doubleton is and so on, but the 'strength' part is still valid even for those). After I open 15-17 1N and both opps pass at their 1st (and sometimes 2nd) opportunity, preempting is not uppermost on my mind :)

For me with a minumum superaccept I bid 3 of the major.

 

I dont have a 4 level super accept.

[Guest Jlall]

Does not exist, but there was a hand in the cavendish where my partner (hamman) opened 1N, RHO bid 2C(various options), i bid 2D, and my partner bid 4H and it made opp my 5 count or w/e that would have passed 3H. A few other tables duplicated that auction. The difference there is that I made a freebid, but obviously that is a very unusual auction too.

[inquiry]

I searched the most recent bridgebrowser database for BBO tournaments/team games a total of 939 times. So yes,this auction occurs. The 4♥ bidders held from 13 to 21 hcps, and the average result was +0.46 imps (+/- 0.24) and 51.31% (+/- 1.60).

 

It is a shame that these bidders get away with such a break down in the concept of captaincy, but they get normal result when partner had enough to invite or force to game.

 

BTW, i voted that it does not exist, since after all, there is no logical meaning for it.

[matmat]

It is a shame that these bidders get away with such a break down in the concept of captaincy, but they get normal result when partner had enough to invite or force to game.

 

BTW, i voted that it does not exist, since after all, there is no logical meaning for it.

couple of points.

 

1) people (myself included) get away with way more bad bridge than what should be considered fair.

 

2) there is a perfectly logical explanation for the bid. it's a splinter in support of diamonds. duh.

[Cascade]

I've seen this auction at least once successfully perpetrated against me by a national champion.

 

We open 1NT sometimes with a singleton usually a high honour (ace, king or queen) but 4-4-4-1's with any black singleton are possible as are some 5-4-3-1's with weak long suits. I have been tempted occasionally to bid 4-Major over a transfer with a side suit singleton and a hand that has revalued more than a normal super-accpet but so far have resisted the temptation although i can imagine that not lasting forever.

 

We don't super-accept on every hand with four-card support in fact I think we are quite conservative - I've been minus 200 (or worse) in 3Major too often. Our requirements for a super-accept are:

 

1. An absolute maximum with four or more trumps

 

2. Most hands with five trumps - soft values and non-maximums won't super-accept

 

3. Most hands with a singleton - not with a minimum and a singleton king or queen.

[Fluffy]

Of course exists, my client does it 2 or 3 times each year, and it is succesfull only when I have GF values.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

The bid does not exists, and even, if it would

show the hand you skeched above, it would

not be necessary.

1) partner is broke, you are to high

2) partner would have accepted anyway

3) partner would have liked to have some

space to investigate 6H, and now all he

can do after 4H is bidding 4NT

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[whereagles]

Of course the bid exists:

 

A

AKxx

KT9x

QJxx

 

Has chances opposite pard's expected assorted junk, e.g.,

 

xxx

Qxxxx

xx

xxx

[Finch]

I've seen this auction exactly once, after partner carelessly opened his 16-count a 10-13 1NT (before the days of announcements, so no UI).

 

I've seen hands a couple of times where a 1NT overcaller raises partner's transfer to game, but that's a little different, as a 1NT overcall is more likely to be offshape.

[dburn]

I'm pretty sure I've seen it in international play, and that Eric Rodwell or Jeff Meckstroth was the perpetrator (but fourth hand had intervened over the transfer). Still, if they can do it, I guess it must exist. I'll look it up when I get home.

[dake50]

Does exist: partner discovered his D were more H.

[rogerclee]

I admit that I have perpetrated this myself. I don't really like it though. I think on most hands, partner will cooperate with a super-accept if you guys can really make 4H.

[cherdano]

1NT-2♦-4♥

 

Can a nice 5♥332 16.5-17 count bid 4♥? Is it winning bridge?

 

(let's assume no 6322 or any other funny things)

Certainly never with a 5332.

[jeffford76]

Does exist: partner discovered his D were more H.

Exactly. Opponents were not amused when I ruffed the opening lead the one time I had the auction 1NT - 2D - 4H - 4NT - 6H.

 

OK, I admit also once having the auction 1NT (12-14) - 2H (signoff) - 4H when I figured the (mostly strong NT) field auction was 1H - 4H. Turned out to make 5H, and the field wasn't in the game, although I understand this doesn't mean it was "right".

[Cascade]

Does exist: partner discovered his D were more H.

Exactly. Opponents were not amused when I ruffed the opening lead the one time I had the auction 1NT - 2D - 4H - 4NT - 6H.

My partner a youth (junior) at the time but since then an international player once had the auction (yes it was as if I was not there):

 

1NT* (Pass) Pass (2♥)

4♠ all Pass

 

* 12-14

 

sometime between opening 1NT and rebidding 4♠ he discovered he had two four-card spade suits in his 4-4-3-2 hand.

[dburn]

Life Imitating Art Department: yesterday at TGR's I had this auction with The Great Malinowski:

 

[hv=d=e&v=e&w=sk9765h75d4cq8743&e=sa1043hk864daq3ckj]266|100|Scoring: Chicago[/hv]

 

East (TGM) 1NT (15-17). West (yours truly) 2♠ (to play). East 4♠ (also to play). Of course, I would have bid game anyway over 3♠, but Artur is not a believer in sending a boy to do a man's job.

 

North leads ♣10 to dummy's jack (beginners and intermediate players should consider why it is wrong to play the king) and South's ace. South returns ♣5 on which North follows with the two. Plan the play, and don't go down when you could have made it or you will never hear the last of it.

[gnasher]

I play a spade to the king and another spade. If South has played an honour on the first round, I finesse; if North has a singleton trump I play two more rounds. In either case, the idea is that South will be endplayed when clubs are 4-2 or 2-4.

 

If North has SQJx, I try for clubs 3-3 and then fall back on the heart finesse.

 

If South has QJ AQxx KJxx Axx, I get wittered at in Norse.

[Fluffy]

if south has 3 trumps it is easy to endplay him, but I see no way to endplay him if he has ♠QJ bare.

So just ♠A, ♠K, wins only when trumps 2-2, or 1-3, or a workable finese (in hearts). Might make also against some 4-0 lay outs.

[kfay]

I think I'm the originator of this thread so obviously my vote is that it does exist B)

 

Was I 5332? Anyways my reasoning was that if I were to open 1♥ with my 5-card suit and maybe a more unbalanced distribution wouldn't any hand that would let the auction go 2♦-2♥-float over a 1NT opening bid 4♥ over 1♥? To me the compensating factor for the distribution here is the extra high-card points ( I believe I was a 15 HCP minimum) and I'm bidding, optimistically, to make at IMPs.

 

True in the 1NT case you don't need the preemptive value of 4♥ from responder since you have more defense and thus look stupid when 3♥ is the limit for everyone. But I did have some concern about the value of my defense when I know that our side has at most 1 heart winner. I believe on the hand in question I wasn't keen to defend anything below the 4-level and ultimately 4♥ was a result of rationalizing that we'd be there irregardless had I opened 1♥. Maybe this says I waffle too much in my bidding plans, but that's hardly news.

[ArtK78]

Some years ago, I was playing in a Swiss Team event with Jim Linhart. This was the first time I had played with Jim, although I had played against him many times. He told me about a hand he had played earlier in the tournament in which he had done exactly what is being discussed in this thread - raised a transfer to game after opening 1NT. He said that it was the only way to get to game on the particular hand, and he made it.

 

In any event, in the last round of the Swiss we had that exact auction. Of course, my hand was good enough to make an invite in any event, and the game made easily. But I almost fell off of my chair in laughter.

 

Does the bid exist? Not really. But that won't stop some players from making it anyway.

[cherdano]

I think I'm the originator of this thread so obviously my vote is that it does exist B)

 

Was I 5332? Anyways my reasoning was that if I were to open 1♥ with my 5-card suit and maybe a more unbalanced distribution wouldn't any hand that would let the auction go 2♦-2♥-float over a 1NT opening bid 4♥ over 1♥?

No. With 5332 I pretty much always transfer opposite 1N but rarely jump to 4♥ opposite a 1♥ opening. It is a bad idea to play in 4♥ because the LAW says so when both hands are balanced.