Another blame my partner

[Fluffy]

[hv=d=w&v=n&w=sa6ha5dqj104cakj63&e=s1073h3dak73c109752]266|100|Scoring: IMP

W - N - E - S

1♣-2♣-3♣-ps

3♦-3♥-4♦-ps

4♥-ps-5♣-ps

ps-ps[/hv]

[jdaming]

5♣ kindof seems like a copout indicating that both of his previous calls were just being competitive rather than actually having 2 beautiful support suits.

[kenrexford]

4♦ was a big bid, IMO, but 4♥ would have been bigger and better. 4♦ left no good options for Responder over 4♥. Speak you piece when and how you need to.

 

Now, perhaps 4♦, and then 4♠ as LTTC over 4♥, is ideal (or 4NT LTTC), but I doubt that technique was available. More likely 4♠ by Opener as LTTC might be useful and spotted.

[pclayton]

This is a max 3♣ call. Why not make a forcing pass over 3♥?

[nick_s]

Agree with Ken about 4♥ instead of 4♦.

 

But having bid 4♦, East still has another chance. Pard has made two slam tries, and you can hardly be better. The only concern is that there are 2 spade losers. After 4♥, I would bid 4NT.

 

Getting to 7♣, is another matter. I don't know how you tell pard about the 5th club and the extra diamond honor.

[awm]

Hmm, I don't get the criticism of 4♦. Wouldn't bidding 4♥ there tend to deny a diamond control? I thought we cuebid controls up the line. Unless it's somehow a splinter non-jump, which is interesting but seems far from "normal."

 

On the other hand, east didn't cuebid 3♠, so should usually not have a spade control. And west cuebid 4♥ anyway, which must therefore promise slam interest and a spade control. East has diamonds locked up and second round control of hearts -- it seems like he should bid past 5♣.

[Fluffy]

7♣ is not a great contract Nick

[kenrexford]

Hmm, I don't get the criticism of 4♦. Wouldn't bidding 4♥ there tend to deny a diamond control? I thought we cuebid controls up the line. Unless it's somehow a splinter non-jump, which is interesting but seems far from "normal."

 

On the other hand, east didn't cuebid 3♠, so should usually not have a spade control. And west cuebid 4♥ anyway, which must therefore promise slam interest and a spade control. East has diamonds locked up and second round control of hearts -- it seems like he should bid past 5♣.

I would imagine that a "non-jump splinter" of 4♥ would be observed as such by most folks. The idea that a splinter denies a diamond card is weird, IMO. I understand that bypassing 4♦ on the one hand sounds like a denial of a diamond card, but a splinter (even non-jump) is a different beast.

[jdonn]

This is so much simpler than people are making it out to be. West has a slam force over 4♦. I don't understand any criticism of east. 4♦ was a very strong bid, and he has no spade control which for all he knows is what the partnership lacks. Sure an 'ongoing, not-blackwood' 4NT would be nice, but if he doesn't play it he doesn't play it.

 

I saw the quote from Adam's post right above this and was about to say I agree, but then I read the whole post. I don't think 4♦ is cuebidding at all, it shows a maximum with a double fit. Sure diamond strength is strongly implied, but I would never think it denies a spade control. But this is still all moot, how could west not bid slam over 4♦? I'll pay off to partner mirroring my shape.

 

BTW, the slam should be bid in DIAMONDS IMO. Responder could be, say, 3244.

[mikeh]

I have no strong feelings on the question of 4♦ or 4♥ over the 3♥ bid: I think both are acceptable. Since both calls show slam interest, West has to carry the blame for missing slam here.

 

I would give east a small amount of blame since I think that, if available, 4N over 4♥ would be better than 5♣. Of course, a lot of players (mistakenly, imo) seem to treat almost all 4N calls (in suit auctions) as blackwood, but this is a perfect example of its use as 'too much to bid 5♣, but not enough to drive to slam' call. However, if 4N would be treated as keycard, then west is entirely to blame.

 

As for West's best call over 4N, I think it is probably 5N if understood as 'pick a slam', to cater to east being 4=4, as josh suggested.

[keylime]

Ditto Josh and Mike - I want to play in diamonds if possible on this hand.

[mike777]

Dealer: West Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ A6 ♥ A5 ♦ QJ104 ♣ AKJ63 ♠ 1073 ♥ 3 ♦ AK73 ♣ 109752

W - N - E - S 1♣-2♣-3♣-ps 3♦-3♥-4♦-ps 4♥-ps-5♣-ps ps-ps

4D seems just fine

How can west not rkc over 4d?

 

:)

 

Of course 4H is rkc for diamonds for me and the correct response is 5clubs so again why is west passing. :)

[rogerclee]

I don't see any criticism for E. How can he know about the two major bullets? What's to stop you from holding Kx AJ QJTx AKJxx?

 

Anyway, I think it is tough to bid this slam, but after the 4D encouragement, I would probably go for it without cuebidding.

 

I'd say the slam should be in diamonds too, except for the psycho-bidding by N, indicating that he may be void.

[ArtK78]

I am curious about one thing.

 

Many posters are stating that they want to play this slam in diamonds, not clubs. I assume that they mean that they would prefer to play the 4-4 diamond fit than a hypothetical 5-4 club fit, since the 4-4 fit will often produce an extra trick.

 

However, on the actual hand, you have a 5-5 club fit, not a 5-4 club fit. Therefore, there is no advantage (and a possible disadvantage) of playing in the 4-4 diamond fit. If you get a 5-0 diamond break, you will not be able to avoid the loss of a trump trick playing in diamonds, but you have a chance to avoid a diamond loser if you are playing in clubs.

 

There is also more of a chance of an adverse club ruff playing in a diamond contract, but that may be a natural club loser in any event, so that is not as much of a consideration.

[mikeh]

I am curious about one thing.

 

Many posters are stating that they want to play this slam in diamonds, not clubs.  I assume that they mean that they would prefer to play the 4-4 diamond fit than a hypothetical 5-4 club fit, since the 4-4 fit will often produce an extra trick.

 

However, on the actual hand, you have a 5-5 club fit, not a 5-4 club fit.  Therefore, there is no advantage (and a possible disadvantage) of playing in the 4-4 diamond fit.  If you get a 5-0 diamond break, you will not be able to avoid the loss of a trump trick playing in diamonds, but you have a chance to avoid a diamond loser if you are playing in clubs.

 

There is also more of a chance of an adverse club ruff playing in a diamond contract, but that may be a natural club loser in any event, so that is not as much of a consideration.

That is why West wants to give partner a choice of slams: east will choose clubs with 5 clubs, but should choose diamonds with, say, 3=2=4=4 or 2=3=4=4.

 

This is one reason that many expert pairs use a bid of 5N as choice of slams rather than, for example, GSF. But, as with any nuanced bid, a partnership needs to be on reasonably firm ground when deciding to play '5N is (usually/often) pick a slam'.

[mike777]

does not 3c here show 5 clubs? Bidding on 4 smallish clubs seems a bit much here.

[mikeh]

does not 3c here show 5 clubs? Bidding on 4 smallish clubs seems a bit much here.

xxx xx AKxx Q109x: who isn't bidding 3♣ here? Are we really passing?

 

Yes, it is still possible that partner is 4=3=3=3, for example, but are we allowing ourselves to be blocked out of the bidding out of that fear?

[655321]

does not 3c here show 5 clubs?  Bidding on 4 smallish clubs seems a bit much here.

No, 3♣ does not 'show' 5 clubs.

 

It is true, you will often have 5 clubs to raise here.

But this is a competitive auction, opponents may be about to bid 4M.

If you have 4 clubs and the values for competing, it is important to let partner know.

[mike777]

interesting I would not have bid a direct 3c with only 4clubs I would have just passed with those example hands. We may only have 7 clubs let alone only 8 clubs at the 3 level and I do have some defense.

[mikeh]

interesting I would not have bid a direct 3c with only 4clubs I would have just passed with those example hands. We may only have 7 clubs let alone only 8 clubs at the 3 level and I do have some defense.

[hv=w=saxxhxdq10xxcakjxx&e=sxxhxxxdakxxcq109x]266|100|If we pass, and RHO bounces to 4♥, do we expect partner to bid? Do we need to pass 2♣ and then guess whether with our 'defence' we should be doubling for -590 if only 2 minor winners cash or should we bid our cold game? Count me out of this guessing game: let me bid 3♣ and partner will know to bid 5♣ over 4♥. Bridge is a game for bidders[/hv]