SAYC - up the line?

[11WAMMER]

I opened 1♦, Pass, 2♣. My p had 15 pts, a 4 card ♥ suit with his 5♣s. I say he should have bid 1♥. He says no, with his strength, he should bid 2♣ and bid his ♥s later. I'm looking for some discussion and if he's right, why?

[kgr]

bidding 2♣ and ♥'s later shows GF, 5+card ♣ and 4 card ♥.

[mike777]

I opened 1♦, Pass, 2♣.  My p had 15 pts, a 4 card ♥ suit with his 5♣s.  I say he should have bid 1♥.  He says no, with his strength, he should bid 2♣ and bid his ♥s later.  I'm looking for some discussion and if he's right, why?

A very warm welcome to the forums. Excellent question!

 

This whole business about bidding up the line or bidding 4 card majors before longer minors can be and is very confusing. Excellent question!

[kenrexford]

With normal bidding, you bid suits in a normal order for length when GF. Thus, as mentioned, 2♣ first, hearts later.

[Stephen Tu]

SAYC is not a "MAFIA" (majors always first in answering) system.

 

"up-the-line" refers to what one does with multiple 4 cd suits, not when holding longer suits.

 

What your partner did, bidding suits longest first when holding the strength to reverse (GF) later is normal in SA systems.

 

Why does one want to do this? Mainly, to accurately let partner know the relative lengths of the club + heart suits. If one bids hearts first, there is no way in a std system to show longer clubs + a game force; if you bid clubs strongly later partner is supposed to assume the hearts are equal or longer length. This is crucial if contemplating game/slam in clubs and to inhibit partner from putting you in a sub-par 4-3 or even 4-2 heart game when some other strain would be better.

 

With weaker hands, one bids hearts first, since you can't afford to take multiple calls, 2c shows a stronger hand, and major partials are more valuable than minor partials since you can more often buy it at the 2 level and only have to take 8 tricks, plus you usually don't mind 1nt that much as a partial.

[lexlogan]

In any version of Standard American, which includes Standard American Yellow Card, the normal procedure is to bid your longest suit first*. Exceptions are made for hands which are weak: a response at the two level suggests 10+ points in SA, closer to 11+ in SAYC, since responder promises a rebid, which will almost always push the bidding up to at least 2NT. Holding 4 hearts and 5 clubs, your partner was correct to bid clubs first, provided he was strong enough to bid the hearts later.

 

Although there is no firm requirement in SAYC to have game-forcing values when you bypass a 4 card major to respond at the two level in a minor, as a practical matter it's recommended since, after 1D-2C, opener will often rebid 2NT and the 4-4 fit will be lost unless responder now bids 3H. That 3H bid must logically be game-forcing since opener must be able to bid something if he lacks heart support. So I recommend bidding the long suit first with game-forcing values, but respond in the major with anything less. Bidding your suits in this manner will help reach minor suit slams as well as occassional games when 3NT and 4H are both poor contracts.

 

Many players do not realize that much of Standard American bidding is geared toward slam contracts; bidding would be quite different if games and part-scores were all that counted.

 

*Another exception is opening a convenient minor ahead of a 4 card major.

[P_Marlowe]

If you are strong enough, you should always

show your longest suit first, i.e. 2C does

not deny a 4 card mayor.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenrexford]

I'm not sure that the GF requirement is there. I thought that a standard auction included a 2♣ call with a four-card major and at least invitational values, such that you only bid a major first with longer clubs when weak (6-9, maybe 10). At least that's how I remember it.

[lexlogan]

I'm not sure that the GF requirement is there.  I thought that a standard auction included a 2♣ call with a four-card major and at least invitational values, such that you only bid a major first with longer clubs when weak (6-9, maybe 10).  At least that's how I remember it.

You are correct that SAYC does not officially require GF values to bypass a 4-card major, however, since standard bidding still treats opener's 2♥ rebid in this sequence as a strength-showing reverse, while 2♦ shows at least 5 cards, responding 2♣ with only 11 or so risks losing the hearts after opener perforce rebids 2NT with most minimums. I, personally, allow opener to rebid 2♥ or 2♠ on a minimum, balanced hand, but that is completely non-standard. (An alternate non-standard agreement is for opener to rebid 2D with any minimum, even on 4432.) As a practical matter, with a four-card major, long clubs and less than GF values, you can't count on showing both suits, so it's usually better to show the major and supress the minor.

[11WAMMER]

Thanks all for your responses. I understand the sequence now and my p will be happier i do. That's what I love about this game, there's always something new to learn.

[foo]

1D-2C is a troublesome sequence for almost every bidding system.

 

If playing SA or SAYC, then the standard agreement is that Responder can use this sequence with Invitational+ values.

 

Ordinarily, Responder's Reverse shows GF values. This situation is an exception.

 

Since 1D-2C;2M is supposed to show 15+ HCP on opener's part, responder is allowed to "mini-reverse" on invitational+ values (say 11+ HCP) after

1D-2C;2D-??. OTOH, the auction 1D-2C;2N-3M is still GF.

 

One of the implications of this is that opener should =strain= to rebid 2D:

1D-2C;2D as often as possible to allow an invitational responder room to bid 2M.

 

Therefore a common set of agreemnts here is

a= for opener to rebid 2D with almost any 5 card ♦ suit. Regardless of strength.

(there are exceptions: great ♦'s + ♣ support, being 65 with a 5cM, etc)

b= for opener to rebid 2M or raise ♣'s with 15+

(2H denies 5+D. 2S denies 5+D and 4+H)

c= for opener to rebid 2N with minimums that are exactly =3343 or =4432 in S+H

(=3352 is often considered a "judgment hand" where you rebid 2D or 2N based on which you think is better.)

 

Obviously, this leaves some hand types imposible to bid, so

d= opener rebids 2D if they intend to pass 3C or raise to 3C on their next turn.

This takes care of all mininum hands with 3+C support.

e= opener rebids 2D if "stuck for bid" based on a-d above.

[blackshoe]

Since 1D-2C;2M is supposed to show 15+ HCP on opener's part, responder is allowed to "mini-reverse" on invitational+ values (say 11+ HCP) after

1D-2C;2D-??. OTOH, the auction 1D-2C;2N-3M is still GF.

After 1♦-2♣;2♦ there is still the possibility of game. I would think responder's rebid of 2M, while technically a reverse, would show, in the first instance, a stopper in that suit, suggesting 2NT (or more) as the final contract. So, forcing to 2NT or 3 of either minor. If responder has extra values, he can go on after that.

[foo]

Since 1D-2C;2M is supposed to show 15+ HCP on opener's part, responder is allowed to "mini-reverse" on invitational+ values (say 11+ HCP) after

1D-2C;2D-??.  OTOH, the auction  1D-2C;2N-3M  is still GF.

After 1♦-2♣;2♦ there is still the possibility of game. I would think responder's rebid of 2M, while technically a reverse, would show, in the first instance, a stopper in that suit, suggesting 2NT (or more) as the final contract...

No. Either sequence shows a 4cM. How else is a hand with a 4cM and longer ♣'s supposed to be bid by responder?

[blackshoe]

No. Either sequence shows a 4cM. How else is a hand with a 4cM and longer ♣'s supposed to be bid by responder?

Good point. Unless you allow canapé in these cases - but that wouldn't be standard american, I guess.

[foo]

Two other reasonably popular ways I've seen of handling potential bidding problems after

1D-2C;??

Call my previous post Method A. Method A is the closest to "Standard".

The following can be effective, but they are furtther from Standard.

Don't play either of these without extensive discussion with partner!

You have been warned.

 

Method B= remove the requirement that opener have extras in order to use

1D-2C;2M

This allows opener, who We usually want to declare the hand anyway playing SA,

to get the Majors in first most of the time.

Since Responder has promised a rebid no matter what anyway, and opener can pass 1D-2C;2M-2N or 1D-2C;2M-3C , the cost for this is fairly small.

OTOH, there =are= ripple effects throughout System that must be considered.

 

Method C= Opener rebids 2D, regardless of ♦ length, on just about every hand except a specifically chosen few.

Depending on what you decide 1D-2C;2N shows, this can easily result in you having the agreement that minimum =4432's rebid 2D!.

If you do this, rebidding a 3 card suit is sufficiently unusual that IMHO the sequence 1D-2C;2D has to be alerted.