Torture Bid

[TylerE]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sjt94hq7dakq9ct53]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(1♣) - p - (1♠) - 2♥

p - ???

[/hv]

 

Note: Opps unknown but appear to be pretty decent. Partner is a well known forum poster.

 

Well, how DO you get out of this?

[mike777]

2S

 

Partner bid 2H vul in a live auction.

 

I would just fall back on that old standbye....cuebid or double with tough bidding problems. My expectation is I am going to force to game in either 3nt or 4H.

 

btw prefer to overcall 1d of 1c but in any event...:huh:

[jdeegan]

:huh: 4♥.

 

Partner rates to have either ♥AKJxxx and one outside card or six hearts missing one honor plus two outside cards. Hmmm..... both produce ten tricks in hearts. Even five ♥ AKJ and two club cards behind the bidder produce ten tricks in hearts. Pard might even have the ♦ J.

 

So, why screw around? Just bid it. Opponents may slide into 4♠ on this auction, hehe.

[han]

4H.

[whereagles]

2NT wtp??? so simple it's even amazing.

[jdeegan]

2NT wtp??? so simple it's even amazing.

:ph34r: Club stop?, we don' need no stinkin' club stop

[matmat]

2N or 3D for me. we may very well have 10 tricks in hearts, but opps might take the first four or five

[fifee]

I like 2♠. If opps have bid 2 suits, then cuebidding one of them would show a stopper in the suit that I cued and interest in game for me. Qx is not the best trump support but how many times do we have the textbook hand for a specific bid?

[jdonn]

2♠, I don't see the rush to bid 4♥. Why can't we belong in 3NT? I wouldn't actually mind 3♦ except partner might be endplayed in the bidding with clubs covered but nothing in spades.

[Guest Jlall]

2S seems normal, if partner bids 2N I wont really consider not playing 3N

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2S, the alternative being pass, and this alternative

is certainly not a bad one.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

:ph34r: 4♥.

 

Partner rates to have either ♥AKJxxx and one outside card or six hearts missing one honor plus two outside cards.  Hmmm..... both produce ten tricks in hearts.  Even five ♥ AKJ and two club cards behind the bidder produce ten tricks in hearts.  Pard might even have the ♦ J.

 

So, why screw around? Just bid it.  Opponents may slide into 4♠ on this auction, hehe.

Most of the time 2H is based on a weak two type hand,

so if you catch partner with AKJxxx and out you may

catch him with a max.

 

A simple check, what partner can hold, is provided by the

point count, 40HCP are in the deck, they opened and

answered on the one level, i.e. it is fairly safe to assume

they have 20HCP between them, and I hold 12HCP, what

is left?

And you may even lower the expected point count for the

opponenents a littel bit, although it is not a good idea to

assume they always have dead min. values for their bids.

And if you do, you see, that partner needs no wastage to

make 4H a good bet.

If you invite and ask him, he will bid 4H, if he holds this hand.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Guest Jlall]

A simple check, what partner can hold, is provided by the

point count, 40HCP are in the deck, they opened and

answered on the one level, i.e. it is fairly safe to assume

they have 20HCP between them, and I hold 12HCP, what

is left?

No one can never ask me why I respond with crappy hands ever again. You guys would be surprised how many people think this way.

 

Marlowe bridge is a changing game, I cannot believe you assume that partner has overcalled vulnerable in sandwich seat with a weak 2 and that the opponents opening and response shows 20 points. Maybe in 1920 this was close to true, but people can open now with 11 points (!) and respond with three points!

 

How about the fact that partner stuck his neck out and showed at least an opening hand with a good suit and we should trust him.

[P_Marlowe]

A simple check, what partner can hold, is provided by the

point count, 40HCP are in the deck, they opened and

answered on the one level, i.e. it is fairly safe to assume

they have 20HCP between them, and I hold 12HCP, what

is left?

No one can never ask me why I respond with crappy hands ever again. You guys would be surprised how many people think this way.

 

Marlowe bridge is a changing game, I cannot believe you assume that partner has overcalled vulnerable in sandwich seat with a weak 2 and that the opponents opening and response shows 20 points. Maybe in 1920 this was close to true, but people can open now with 11 points (!) and respond with three points!

 

How about the fact that partner stuck his neck out and showed at least an opening hand with a good suit and we should trust him.

Hi,

 

true they may open with 11 and may respond with 3,

but how likely is it, that this happened at the same deal.

More likely is, they opened with 15 and responded with

3 or the other way round, the sum is still the same.

It is an approximation, nothing more, but also nothing less.

 

I guess, you pass with AKJxxx and a 6-4 shape?

If partner has nothing you will make 5 tricks, 800 vs. 600 is

nothing to cheer about, but also not the end of the world,

but every trick partner provides lets you break even, and they

have still game on, and sometimes you even make.

 

I am not saying, that you should not invite, I am just saying,

that depending on partnership agreements and style, one

should not be surprised, if one catches partner on a weak

two type hand.

 

People mentioned possible hands partner could hold, and those

hands were always pure, with no wastage, and this is dangerous.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: And your argument, that we are vulnerable holds

true also for the opponents, not that it did matter for my

argumentation.

[foo]

A simple check, what partner can hold, is provided by the

point count, 40HCP are in the deck, they opened and

answered on the one level, i.e. it is fairly safe to assume

they have 20HCP between them, and I hold 12HCP, what

is left?

No one can never ask me why I respond with crappy hands ever again. You guys would be surprised how many people think this way.

 

Marlowe bridge is a changing game, I cannot believe you assume that partner has overcalled vulnerable in sandwich seat with a weak 2 and that the opponents opening and response shows 20 points. Maybe in 1920 this was close to true, but people can open now with 11 points (!) and respond with three points!

 

How about the fact that partner stuck his neck out and showed at least an opening hand with a good suit and we should trust him.

Partnerships that make a habit of opening indifferent 11 counts and responding with 3 counts are partnerships that are bucking the odds and gambling on not getting bad scores.

 

Also, this sort of habit puts pressure on the partnership on every board. There is always that worry regarding "Just how good is partner for his bid =this= time"?

 

The old "a club", vs "one club", vs "I'll start with a club" 'convention' and other sorts of UI can help field the huge variance in hand types behind the calls, but that's not the way Bridge should be played...

[rogerclee]

A simple check, what partner can hold, is provided by the

point count, 40HCP are in the deck, they opened and

answered on the one level, i.e. it is fairly safe to assume

they have 20HCP between them, and I hold 12HCP, what

is left?

No one can never ask me why I respond with crappy hands ever again. You guys would be surprised how many people think this way.

 

Marlowe bridge is a changing game, I cannot believe you assume that partner has overcalled vulnerable in sandwich seat with a weak 2 and that the opponents opening and response shows 20 points. Maybe in 1920 this was close to true, but people can open now with 11 points (!) and respond with three points!

 

How about the fact that partner stuck his neck out and showed at least an opening hand with a good suit and we should trust him.

Partnerships that make a habit of opening indifferent 11 counts and responding with 3 counts are partnerships that are bucking the odds and gambling on not getting bad scores.

 

Also, this sort of habit puts pressure on the partnership on every board. There is always that worry regarding "Just how good is partner for his bid =this= time"?

 

The old "a club", vs "one club", vs "I'll start with a club" 'convention' and other sorts of UI can help field the huge variance in hand types behind the calls, but that's not the way Bridge should be played...

If you don't respond 1S to 1m on KTxxxx x xxx xxx, we're not playing the same game.

[foo]

If you don't respond 1m-1S on KTxxxx x xxx xxx, we're not playing the same game.

You are right. We are not playing the same game.

KTxxxx_x_xxx_xxx looks like 1m-2S! WJS to me.

[Apollo81]

This is a completely normal 2♠ bid, which shows a stopper since there are two opponent suits. 3NT could easily be the right contract, even if partner has 6+ hearts.

 

Pass is probably the worst call <= 4♥ (well maybe 4c is worse)

[ArtK78]

I do not know what my opponents are doing, but I always believe my partner.

 

He bid at the two level opposite a passed partner into a live auction vul at IMPs. He has a good hand.

 

I would never dream of passing. I bid 2♠. Second choice - 4♥, but since 3NT could easily be the right contract, 2♠ is better.

[Guest Jlall]

I do not know what my opponents are doing, but I always believe my partner.

 

He bid at the two level opposite a passed partner into a live auction vul at IMPs. He has a good hand.

 

I would never dream of passing. I bid 2♠. Second choice - 4♥, but since 3NT could easily be the right contract, 2♠ is better.

This was pretty much what I was trying to say.

 

As far as the opponents being more likely to have 20 points than 14 points, I agree with that when the bidding starts, but when partner has overcalled vul at the 2 level things have changed. The opponents seem much more likely to me to hold 14 points than 20 points now.

[P_Marlowe]

I do not know what my opponents are doing, but I always believe my partner.

 

He bid at the two level opposite a passed partner into a live auction vul at IMPs.  He has a good hand.

 

I would never dream of passing.  I bid 2♠.  Second choice - 4♥, but since 3NT could easily be the right contract, 2♠ is better.

Ok.

 

Your Partner never holds a 7 card suit headed by KJ

and out in the 4th seat, and if he does he has to bid

3H? If so, than this is insane, and the same is true,

if has to pass.

 

I also trust my partner, but that does not mean that

I cant listen to the bidding.

I have passed, which does not (!) imply that I am broke,

but it means that partner can and should act more freely,

as long as he has a suitable hand, and the bandwith

of suitable hands is fairly large.

We agree, that partner has a hand with good playing

potential, but this does not mean he is looking at an

opening bid.

 

He wont bid with the expection, that we still have game

our way, the same math I applied to get a rough

estimate of the min. opponents strength can be applied

by partner, he will bid because he has a good suit.

 

Bidding 4H, or forcing to game for that matter, is hanging

partner.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

Bidding 4H, or forcing to game for that matter, is hanging

partner.

KJxxxxx of hearts and out is a totally obvious pass, bidding with that is suicide.

 

Forcing to game on this is not hanging partner. It's trusting him. I game force too. And I second Justin's comments except a little differently. He sees people not bidding game on hands like this and feels justified bidding so lightly. I see people not bidding game on hands like this and wonder why I don't bid more lightly.

[P_Marlowe]

This is a completely normal 2♠ bid, which shows a stopper since there are two opponent suits.

<snip>

Just a hint, there are two schools out there, in case the

opponents bid two suits, one school shows a stopper,

and another ask for a stopper via a cue bid.

[pclayton]

This is a completely normal 2♠ bid, which shows a stopper since there are two opponent suits.

<snip>

Just a hint, there are two schools out there, in case the

opponents bid two suits, one school shows a stopper,

and another ask for a stopper via a cue bid.

No there is only one school. If they bid one suit, cues ask. If they bid 2, cues show.

[Fluffy]

This is just semantic, but I prefer to say that cue shows no matter if they showed 0, 1, 2 or 1.5 suits like this one. The problem is it might show fit, stopper, a hand that wants to play NT if partner stops their suit, or the unlikelly strong hand with no better call avaible.

 

The problem with 2♠ is that it colides with something smilar but with 3 hearts, so partner can't know if we are inviting to game with support or showing a hand with no club control.

 

If I had a bit less I would prefer 2NT to 2♠ because otherwise I would not know what to do when partner bids 2NT next. And a 1♣ opening is not a worryng as a major or even diamonds.