15 imp swing

[gwnn]

[hv=d=w&v=e&n=sxhajxxdxxckqjxxx&s=saxhxxxdaxxxcatxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

p-1♣-1♠-X

3♠-p-4♠-X

 

all pass

 

-590-400=15 imp

 

NS=weak NT

Edited December 20, 2007 by gwnn

[whereagles]

your teammates take 110% of the blame for not having found the 4♠ "save" :)

[cherdano]

Huh, I am the first one to give North blame? How can you pass with 1426 and just one defensive trick when your partner has to assume you have a weak NT?

[P_Marlowe]

I voted no blame.

 

#1 1C opening is ok, what else

#2 the neg. X is ok, we can of course talk

about 2NT being better, but the neg. X

is not bad / terrible

#3 Pass after 3S is ok

#3 the Penalty double is ok, after all you have

3 defensive tricks oppossite a opener

#4 Passing the Penalty out is ok as well, ok

you have some offense, but you are min,

and your shape is not out of space

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gwnn]

sorry everyone I forgot to say, NS play weak NT

[P_Marlowe]

Huh, I am the first one to give North blame? How can you pass with 1426 and just one defensive trick when your partner has to assume you have a weak NT?

And go to the 5 Level, which most likely converts

a reasonable plus score into minus, -500 is possible,

because partner never told you he has a fit for you?

 

But he may well sit on 2 trump tricks + 1 1/2 other tricks.

 

Expect no mercy from your teammates, if you go and

it is wrong.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ArtK78]

I see that the panel is not willing to ascribe much blame for this result.

 

But here are my two cents.

 

Why is South making a negative double without hearts?

 

Here is a simple suggestion. Rather than make a negative double, bid 2♠ - game forcing, denies hearts, shows club support.

 

Now, it is not nearly as difficult for North to bid 4♣ over 3♠. And if South still doubles 4♠, well, that's life.

[P_Marlowe]

I see that the panel is not willing to ascribe much blame for this result.

 

But here are my two cents.

 

Why is South making a negative double without hearts?

 

Here is a simple suggestion.  Rather than make a negative double, bid 2♠ - game forcing, denies hearts, shows club support.

 

Now, it is not nearly as difficult for North to bid 4♣ over 3♠.  And if South still doubles 4♠, well, that's life.

Depending how many clubs the 1C opener did

promise, e.g. for some, it may show only 2,

some people may require 5 clubs for 2S.

 

I am not saying, 2S is wrong, but just, that this

bid has some flaws as well.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

This is an auto double of 2 Spade, even with just 3 Hearts. What else? Searching the possible 4-3 Fit in Clubs before?

 

After this double, North can never ever pass with his hand. This is beyond words.

He has an offensive 1426 hand, a clear 4 HEart bid.

After this bid there is still a big danger, that you reach 4 Spade doubled, but you have at least a chance to escape to 5 Club.

 

So 100% North.

[ArtK78]

I see that the panel is not willing to ascribe much blame for this result.

 

But here are my two cents.

 

Why is South making a negative double without hearts?

 

Here is a simple suggestion.  Rather than make a negative double, bid 2♠ - game forcing, denies hearts, shows club support.

 

Now, it is not nearly as difficult for North to bid 4♣ over 3♠.  And if South still doubles 4♠, well, that's life.

Depending how many clubs the 1C opener did

promise, e.g. for some, it may show only 2,

some people may require 5 clubs for 2S.

 

I am not saying, 2S is wrong, but just, that this

bid has some flaws as well.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Let's explore this further.

 

Suppose we take the 2 card club opening bid out of the equation. Suppose the hands were:

 

[hv=n=sxhajxxdkqjxxxcxx&s=saxhxxxdatxxcaxxx]133|200|1♦ - 1♠ - x - 3♠

P - 4♠ - x - All Pass[/hv]

 

Do you agree with the auction? Is there any difference (other than the reversal of the minor suits) to the original hand?

 

Would a 2♠ bid over 1♠ be more acceptable in this auction?

 

Going back to the original hand. Suppose North, instead of holding 1426, held:

 

[hv=s=skxxhakqjdxxxckxx]133|100|[/hv]

 

Doesn't North have an automatic 4♥ call over 3♠ after South makes a negative double? On a spade lead, both hearts and notrump make the same number of tricks - most often 9.

 

But if South cue bids rather than makes a negative double, NS get to 3NT.

 

I admit that the cue bid is not perfect. But it is less flawed than the negative double.

[Fluffy]

Nice hand to show why doubling is wrong. Because it is overloaded with various types of hands.

 

2♠ instead would had worked tad better: Never ask when you can show.

 

Anyway biggest mistake is passing twice with north's hand. I awarded him only 60%.

[brianshark]

When partner assumes you have 4 hearts and bids some number of them at some level, what do do then? Play on the 4-3 heart fit? At least if you're working with a potential 4-3 club fit, you're not looking for a club game, you're looking for NT. I think the cue-bid is far superior to the double.

 

Having made the double, I think north has a clear 4♥ bid over 3♠.

[jtfanclub]

Call me crazy....

 

but I just bid 3NT as South (or 3♠ if that will be interpreted as a transfer to NT). I'm control heavy for a 3NT leap, but I'm on the low end for points (12-15), so it should work fine.

 

Why am I playing around? Hoping that partner started with 6 clubs and 5 hearts?

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Let's explore this further.

 

Suppose we take the 2 card club opening bid out of the equation. Suppose the hands were:

 

[hv=n=sxhajxxdkqjxxxcxx&s=saxhxxxdatxxcaxxx]133|200|1♦ - 1♠ - x - 3♠

P - 4♠ - x - All Pass[/hv]

 

Do you agree with the auction? Is there any difference (other than the reversal of the minor suits) to the original hand?

 

Would a 2♠ bid over 1♠ be more acceptable in this auction?

<snip>

Yes, because it is more likely that the 1D opener

was based on a 4 card suit.

 

And I would have bid 2S myself in this case.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Going back to the original hand. Suppose North, instead of holding 1426, held:

 

[hv=s=skxxhakqjdxxxckxx]133|100|[/hv]

 

Doesn't North have an automatic 4♥ call over 3♠ after South makes a negative double? On a spade lead, both hearts and notrump make the same number of tricks - most often 9.

<snip>

 

But if South cue bids rather than makes a negative double, NS get to 3NT.

 

I admit that the cue bid is not perfect. But it is less flawed than the negative double.

The answer is No, 3H is enough.

 

Sorry, but the neg. X could just be based

on 6/7HCP, depending on partnership

agreement, which means openers 16HCP

balanced hand (which he would have opened

with 1 NT anyway) is not enough to justify

a 4H call.

 

And after a 3H bid, responder can bid 3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Having made the double, I think north has a clear 4♥ bid over 3♠.

You do realize, that the neg X occurred on the 1 Level?

4H on the North hand is ...

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: We had this discussion before, although the mayors

were reversed, and I know that I am fairly alone at this

forum with the opinion that a neg. X does not 100% gurantee

the unbid mayor, or more precise, I believe, that you are

able to cancel the message, that you hold 4 cards in the other

mayor.

[brianshark]

I think the negative double either shows the 4 card major or it shows some fairly strong hand that is good enough to bid again after any support bid by opener. Opener should assume it's the 4 cards in the unbid major unless told otherwise.

 

I believe that 3♠ takes up too much space and is forcing opener to make the best educated guess as to the best contract. I think at the table 4♥ rates to be reasonable, whether it makes or not, because of my shapely hand with lots of offense and little defence. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[Codo]

Cuebid is so great?

 

Okay

Pd has

Kxx, AKQJ, xx, Kxx and bids what after 3 Spade comes to him? 3 NT with a singelton stopper? Because he knows that you have a running suit and/or a stopper yourself?

 

He has

xxx,KQJx,Kxx,KQJ and you want him to bid what? And you want to play which contract?

 

Yes, you will avoid some silly 4 Heart contracts with the cuebid, but with the double you have at least the chance to find some good 4 Heart contracts when NT is not the best contract. And- as long as the opps don´t intervene more- you may have a chance to show your hand type later.

[Fluffy]

You do realize, that the neg X occurred on the 1 Level?

4H on the North hand is ...

And do you realise he passed latter a take out double with a 6-4 with concentrated values?

[P_Marlowe]

You do realize, that the neg X occurred on the 1 Level?

4H on the North hand is ...

And do you realise he passed latter a take out double with a 6-4 with concentrated values?

Do you mean the 2nd doubel?

 

The 2nd double is penalty.

 

The first was neg. and did not

deny length in their suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

Pd has

Kxx, AKQJ, xx, Kxx and bids what after 3 Spade comes to him? 3 NT with a singelton stopper? Because he knows that you have a running suit and/or a stopper yourself?

 

He has

xxx,KQJx,Kxx,KQJ and you want him to bid what? And you want to play which contract?

If opponents go to the 3 level with 8 trumps and nothing I expect partner makes a responsive double to score +500 or more

[ASkolnick]

Don't agree that negative double does not show the unbid major, but that may be a matter of style.

 

Here is the advantage of playing a Strong NT. When partner opens one of a minor, he has one of two hand types:

 

1) Strong NT+

2) Unbalanced with a minor.

 

Cuebidding is much better, since it is safer. If partner has a good stopper, he could bid NT. With a partial stopper, we play the raise of the cuebid looks for a partial stopper.

 

As for Codo, asking what do you do with a bad 15-16 count over 1C-1S-2S-3S. The advantage now of cue-bidding is you have set-up a forcing auction, so with no stopper, you can actually pass and let partner make a decision. With a long club suit, you should be bidding over this.

However, over a negative double you have not established your side has maximum values.

 

However, once a negative double was made, how can you not bid 4H? Not that it will necessarily make, but you should know looking at your hand, you are probably not setting 4S anyway.

[ArtK78]

<snip>

Going back to the original hand.  Suppose North, instead of holding 1426, held:

 

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ Kxx ♥ AKQJ ♦ xxx ♣ Kxx

 

Doesn't North have an automatic 4♥ call over 3♠ after South makes a negative double?  On a spade lead, both hearts and notrump make the same number of tricks - most often 9.

<snip>

 

But if South cue bids rather than makes a negative double, NS get to 3NT.

 

I admit that the cue bid is not perfect.  But it is less flawed than the negative double.

The answer is No, 3H is enough.

 

Sorry, but the neg. X could just be based

on 6/7HCP, depending on partnership

agreement, which means openers 16HCP

balanced hand (which he would have opened

with 1 NT anyway) is not enough to justify

a 4H call.

 

And after a 3H bid, responder can bid 3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

You can bid 3♥ if you want to, but the director will be called, as your bid is not sufficient over 3♠.

[ArtK78]

Pd has

Kxx, AKQJ, xx, Kxx  and bids what after 3 Spade comes to him? 3 NT with a singelton stopper? Because he knows that you have a running suit and/or a stopper yourself?

 

He has

xxx,KQJx,Kxx,KQJ  and you want him to bid what? And you want to play which contract?

If opponents go to the 3 level with 8 trumps and nothing I expect partner makes a responsive double to score +500 or more

I knew that sooner or later someone would bring up the fact that the opponents were at the 3 level on an 8 card fit.

 

That was not the point of my example. It was more of a question of what opener would do if faced with the problem - that partner had made a negative double and opener had a balanced hand with AKQJ of hearts.

 

In real life, the opponents shouldn't be jumping around with only an 8 card fit. But sometimes they do.

 

By the way, in both my example and Codo's example, the opener would have opened a strong 1NT (assuming that the partnership is playing a strong 1NT). Still, that is not the point.

[jdonn]

The negative double was a psych that caused north to later go wrong when south had an automatic 2♠ bid, second choice 2♦. There is no way north should have passed later, he easily easily easily should bid over the second double, but if he bid he would always be going to hearts anyway, so no matter how you slice it south is to blame.