Forcing or not?

[Poky]

Assume some casual expert partnership.

 

1♠ pass 1NT 2♥

3♣

 

Is 3♣ forcing or non-forcing?

[kenrexford]

If casual, no.

 

Casual: 3♥ is the only 100% force.

Non-Casual: Good-Bad 2NT used.

[Apollo81]

NF

[whereagles]

F

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I voted forcing, but I would have rather liked

to vote non-forcing.

 

As a matter of fact, it depends on partnership

agreement, e.g. if you play good-bad 2NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gizzydrop]

3♣ looks forcing to me

[joker_gib]

Interesting one !

 

Given that we play a form of Gazilli where 3♣ would show a 5-5 NF if the opps don't come in, I would assume it as NF in my partnership.

 

But to be sure I will ask partner tonight ! :P

 

Alain

[Fluffy]

This is an obvious non-forcing sequence for me, don't know anyone who plays it as forcing.

[pclayton]

Its NF but you need a pretty awful hand to pass.

[whereagles]

This is an obvious non-forcing sequence for me, don't know anyone who plays it as forcing.

lies. You know me :P

[jdonn]

What are with these lately. NF!

[Fluffy]

This is an obvious non-forcing sequence for me, don't know anyone who plays it as forcing.

lies. You know me :P

I had my hopes that you had missread the auction or misstyped NF :)

[han]

NF

[neilkaz]

Its NF but you need a pretty awful hand to pass.

Agreed as I feel it important to fight for the part score.

[foo]

Assume some casual expert partnership.

 

1♠ pass 1NT (2♥);

3♣

 

Is 3♣ forcing or non-forcing?

NF but encouraging.

 

Opener must have extras in terms of playing strength to bid here.

 

The Uncontested Auction 1S-1N;3C traditionally shows 19+ in playing strength and is usually considered GF (unless playing a gadget that allows for Inv JS by Opener).

 

For the Contested Auction 1M-pa-1N-(foo);bar Opener should have something more than a minimum, say ~ a 6 loser hand and medium playing strength.

 

Responder with 9+ in Playing Points (HCP or Dummy Points or ...) should take another forward going bid and establish a GF.

[kenrexford]

NF but encouraging.

Forcing, but discouraging.

[Apollo81]

NON FORCING

[han]

The forcers pass with KQ10xx x Ax KQ10xx?

[Fluffy]

The forcers pass with KQ10xx x Ax KQ10xx?

In Spain they would bid 3♣ and yell at partner when he doesn't see it was non forcing now.

[whereagles]

The forcers pass with KQ10xx x Ax KQ10xx?

we bid a forcing 3♣ anyway, wtp?

[foo]

The forcers pass with KQTxx x Ax KQTxx?

I don't know about you, but after 1S-pa-1N-(2H);?? , I'd consider your pure (no wastage in ♥'s, no bad holdings) 4 loser example to have a enormous amount of playing strength.

 

If pard has 1 good card and a ♠ fit, We rate to make 4S.

If pard has 2 good cards and even reasonable fitting shape, We rate to make 4S or possibly 5C.

If pard has good stops in ♥'s and reasonable fitting shape, 3N has decent chances.

 

IOW, your example is pretty much a GF hand based on the odds.

[jdonn]

The forcers pass with KQTxx x Ax KQTxx?

I don't know about you, but after 1S-pa-1N-(2H);?? , I'd consider your pure (no wastage in ♥'s, no bad holdings) 4 loser example to have a enormous amount of playing strength.

 

If pard has 1 good card and a ♠ fit, We rate to make 4S.

If pard has 2 good cards and even reasonable fitting shape, We rate to make 4S or possibly 5C.

If pard has good stops in ♥'s and reasonable fitting shape, 3N has decent chances.

 

IOW, your example is pretty much a GF hand based on the odds.

So you were going to be consistent and bid 3♣ after 1♠ p 1NT p with your "game force based on the odds"?

 

Funny how partner is the one who knows whether or not he has useful cards. When he doesn't have any, he passes your non-forcing bid. the hands you describe, he bids over the nonforcing bid anyway and you get to the game you want to be in.

 

BTW, none of your three possibilities seems particularly likely. Isn't it more likely partner has no spade fit, not two of the A A K A cards, and not a double heart stopper? So your "on the odds" seems more like a "contrary to the odds" to me.

[pclayton]

The forcers pass with KQ10xx x Ax KQ10xx?

No this is a slow 3♣ call which takes the force off.

[foo]

The forcers pass with KQTxx_x_Ax_KQTxx?

I don't know about you, but after 1S-pa-1N-(2H);?? , I'd consider your pure (no wastage in ♥'s, no bad holdings) 4 loser example to have a enormous amount of playing strength.

 

If pard has 1 good card and a ♠ fit, We rate to make 4S.

If pard has 2 good cards and even reasonable fitting shape, We rate to make 4S or possibly 5C.

If pard has good stops in ♥'s and reasonable fitting shape, 3N has decent chances.

 

IOW, your example is pretty much a GF hand based on the odds.

So you were going to be consistent and bid 3♣ after 1♠ p 1NT p with your "game force based on the odds"?

 

Funny how partner is the one who knows whether or not he has useful cards. When he doesn't have any, he passes your non-forcing bid. the hands you describe, he bids over the nonforcing bid anyway and you get to the game you want to be in.

 

BTW, none of your three possibilities seems particularly likely. Isn't it more likely partner has no spade fit, not two of the A A K A cards, and not a double heart stopper? So your "on the odds" seems more like a "contrary to the odds" to me.

My POV was that 1S-pa-1N-(2H);3C was =non forcing=.

 

Please don't mix me up with someone from the other camp.

 

What I was trying to say re: Hannie's example is that I consider that hand strong enough to GF in this auction. So if 3C is Forcing, I'm using it. If 3C is not, I'm bidding something that is.

 

But I'm going to Game, whether 3N, 4S, or 5C, with KQTxx_x_Ax_KQTxx in this auction.

 

I'll let one of the "Young Scientists" do the simulation to see how well it rates to work out. :rolleyes:

[jdonn]

My POV was that 1S-pa-1N-(2H);3C was =non forcing=.

 

Please don't mix me up with someone from the other camp.

 

What I was trying to say re: Hannie's example is that I consider that hand strong enough to GF in this auction.  So if 3C is Forcing, I'm using it.  If 3C is not, I'm bidding something that is.

 

But I'm going to Game, whether 3N, 4S, or 5C, with KQTxx_x_Ax_KQTxx in this auction.

 

I'll let one of the "Young Scientists" do the simulation to see how well it rates to work out. B)

Sorry if I misrepresented your POV about 3♣ not being forcing. I'm glad to see we agree on that much. My post still remains that given the example brought up by Hannie, on the hands where we belong in game partner is generally not passing a nonforcing 3♣ bid. That hand, as Hannie intended it to begin with, is a perfect example of why 3♣ should be nonforcing.