pclayton Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Simple auction (IMPs if it matters): 1♣ - (1♦) - pass (3♦)3♥ Is 3♥ forcing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 My life is simple.If opener has a hand that wants to play in game, he can bid 4H.If opener has a hand with clubs and hearts, too strong to bid 4H opposite a partner who couldn't bid over 1D, he can open 2C. Therefore 3H is not forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Agree with Frances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 agree with han Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 agree with Mike. Btw if opener has a hand that will force to game without bypassing 3N, maybe he can double.But in general, if you don't open 2♣ you cannot force a partner who hasnt promised anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Unless you are just trying to prove something to someone Phil, what is this question doing here... and in this forum?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted December 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Unless you are just trying to prove something to someone Phil, what is this question doing here... and in this forum?? LOL, this exact question came up in Juniors BBO. I was the lone voice in the panel that thought it was NF, which I thought was just incredible. I needed a reality check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 My life is simple.If opener has a hand that wants to play in game, he can bid 4H.If opener has a hand with clubs and hearts, too strong to bid 4H opposite a partner who couldn't bid over 1D, he can open 2C. Therefore 3H is not forcing. Flawless logic, with which I agree ! 3♥ is NF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 I think it is forcing, because I don't think hands come in the "I want to be in game" versus the "I don't want to be in game" baskets. Instead, I think opener categorizes hands by "I think we can take X tricks in our best fit." Since it's quite possible that the best fit is clubs in this auction, opener evidently wants to try for ten tricks in clubs. Thus opener thinks we have ten tricks in our best fit, and if that best fit is hearts it seems logical to play for the game contract. To give another example, say the auction is: 1♥ - (2♦) - P - (3♦)3♠ Is 3♠ forcing? It seems like there are many hands where responder has utter garbage but hearts are equal or longer to spades, where responder is going to have to bid 4♥ (correct to opener's longer major). So why does it make sense that if spades are longer responder can pass? And what exactly is opener supposed to do with a game-forcing heart-spade hand if 3♠ is NF, bid 4♠ and force partner to correct to 5♥? Or do you really think the heart-spade reverse is forcing and the club-heart reverse is not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 The heart-club reverse is different, see Frances's logic. To Phil. the advice given in the junior BBO tournaments varies greatly depending on the mentors that are around. It can be truly horrifying or very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 But what if opener holds: ♠x♥AKQxx♦x♣KQJTxx It's a three-loser hand. If partner has three hearts then 4♥ is a fine spot (okay I might need the hearts to break 3-2). If partner does not have three hearts then I'm happy to play 4♣, but playing 5♣ seems dumb if partner's broke. So I want to bid exactly 3♥ forcing. I'd argue that this type of hand, where I think I have a good shot at ten tricks opposite a bust with a moderate fit for one of my suits, is much more common than a hand where I "want to be in game" opposite a bust with a moderate fit regardless of whether that game is at the four or five level. Why can I magically make one more trick when our fit is in clubs? Just because the club game is one level higher doesn't give me the extra trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted December 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 The heart-club reverse is different, see Frances's logic. To Phil. the advice given in the junior BBO tournaments varies greatly depending on the mentors that are around. It can be truly horrifying or very interesting. There were a few heavy hitters commenting on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Names, names! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted December 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 The regulars. You know who runs it. I given them a link to this thread. Maybe they can check in with their reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Adam I don't know what to say....this should have been the most unanimous poll in forums history. On the hand you give you want to bid 4♥, which has play even opposite a doubleton. You are totally missing the point that the player who bids 3♥ is almost always taking a chance. What if he has 9 tricks in both? And why is it so unusual that the longer suit would take more tricks when partner fits it than the shorter suit would? Of course not in your examples when you use suits that are totally solid except for one honor, but what if the clubs are AQxxxx in some hand? A very likely two club losers playing in hearts, but one if partner prefers clubs. And despite the first comment of your first post, there is indeed a huge difference between forcing partner to game in your first suit and not. I have heard it said there is a bonus for bidding game! Therefore you should take different chances. Why wouldn't the auctions be different, you have different options in the two cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 But what if opener holds: ♠x♥AKQxx♦x♣KQJTxx It's a three-loser hand. If partner has three hearts then 4♥ is a fine spot (okay I might need the hearts to break 3-2). If partner does not have three hearts then I'm happy to play 4♣, but playing 5♣ seems dumb if partner's broke. So I want to bid exactly 3♥ forcing. I'd argue that this type of hand, where I think I have a good shot at ten tricks opposite a bust with a moderate fit for one of my suits, is much more common than a hand where I "want to be in game" opposite a bust with a moderate fit regardless of whether that game is at the four or five level. Why can I magically make one more trick when our fit is in clubs? Just because the club game is one level higher doesn't give me the extra trick. Bidding, like life, is not perfect. Give me that hand, and I will cheerfully bid 4♥. Partner knows I hold 5 good ones (maybe not this good, but not KJ10xx either) and so he won't 'correct' with 2=3 in hearts and clubs. If my hearts are worse, probably my clubs are better or I have a side Ace. xxxxx xx xxx xxx: I pass 4♥. Heck, he might make it. Now, if he gets doubled..... I'd guess someone has 4 trump and now I run. Look at it the other way: assume that 3♥ shows 5=6 or better. Which is more likely: a moderate 5=6 such as x AJ10xx x AKxxxx (surely we can't be passing 3♦ with this) or your virtual game in hand force? 3♥ nf but, since it reveals good playing values, forward-going. I know, some people don't think that forward-going is can be non-forcing, but it is where I come from :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 The extent of opener's values isn't necessarily important here. Sometimes he has to play responder for a card. The point is, if responder prefers opener's first suit to the second, which is not an infrequent situation, then we have to play at the four level. Maybe this makes, maybe it doesn't. But opener seems willing to take that chance. Why then, when responder prefers opener's second suit to the first, are we not willing to take the chance at 4♥ when the reward for success is so much greater? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Because his hand is x AJxxx x KQJxxx which is relatively safe in 4♣ when responder prefers them, extremely dangerous in 4♥ when responder prefers them on a hand with which he wanted to pass 3♥. Responder knows there is a bonus for game too. Let him decide when we can get it! You are saying opener can't take a chance half the time without being forced to take a chance all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 So to clarify, which of the following auctions are forcing: (1) 1♣ - 1♦ - P - 3♦ - 3♥ (2) 1♥ - 2♦ - P - 3♦ - 3♠ (3) 1♣ - 1♠ - P - 3♠ - 4♦ Also, what is the logic behind the following being forcing: (4) 1♣ - P - 1♠ - P - 2♥ Is it just because "we agreed that way", or is it actually forcing for a logical reason? If there's a reason, why doesn't the same reason apply in auction (1) above? Is the following forcing: (5) 1♣ - P - 1♠ - 3♦ - 3♥ How is this different from (1) above? How is it different from (4)? Is the following forcing: (6) 1♣ - P - 1♠ - 2♦ - 2♥ Even if one can answer all these things, keep in mind that it's important the answers follow some kind of consistent rules rather than just being arbitrary. I think a good rule is with the exception of game-level bids, reverses are forcing. Maybe you think you have a better rule, but I'd like to hear a rule and not something convoluted. And one more for good measure.... (7) 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 3♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Even if one can answer all these things, keep in mind that it's important the answers follow some kind of consistent rules rather than just being arbitrary. I think a good rule is with the exception of game-level bids, reverses are forcing. Maybe you think you have a better rule, but I'd like to hear a rule and not something convoluted. Rule = Reverses are forcing when responder has bid, nonforcing when responder hasn't bid. It's certainly not convoluted and makes great sense. I also believe it constitutes standard, so much as any such "rule" can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 I almost played in the Juniors Tournament today but my 'mentor' signed off at the last moment. I was particularly glad in this instance because there were a few things he insisted on in the bidding which were, to put it mildly, totally insane. One of the moderators of the tournament told me that he was 'actually a pretty good player'... which I didn't respond to. To be fair I've never seen him play but it was pretty hard to swallow. But I've heard a fair share of opinions there that I've cast by the wayside. 3♥ to me is completely non-forcing. By the way, Phil, I watched a few of your hands today. Your partner was hilarious. Especially board 2... something about a 'premium contract' amongst other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Their D-barrage improves my hand to a force. Don't I surrender partscore tries that force this high level guess? Esp. teams?I don't think fitting either H or C, partner will pass, but get him to pick which game?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdeegan Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 B) NF. Get serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Encouraging auction, but how can I be forced to bid with nothing here. Doesn't make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Since I'm from the school that opens 2♣ on any excuse, this is a clear NF situation for me :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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