hcp but not great hand

[gwnn]

K5x

K9x

AKJx

A8x

 

RHO deals and opens 2♣ precision style and we're white on red, teams, probably about 10 imps behind with 3 boards to go.

[Blofeld]

Conditions don't sound justified enough to warrant anything but the normal 2NT, I think. And if there won't be a 2♣ opening at the other table because of system (is this the case?), there may already be a swing on the hand.

[han]

I'd also bid 2NT/ Double might work better but I'd have a hard call on almost any follow-up auction.

[neilkaz]

Conditions don't sound justified enough to warrant anything but the normal 2NT, I think. And if there won't be a 2♣ opening at the other table because of system (is this the case?), there may already be a swing on the hand.

A swing against us since we are overcalling 2NT rather than 1NT (vs SAYCish sys)perhaps :unsure: but 2NT for me as well.

[whereagles]

2NT seems the right bid. Might underbid a bit, but that's ok since we don't mind a swing (e.g. 3NT-1 vs 2NT=).

[barmar]

I wish I had a second ♣ stopper, but I still don't see any other bid but 2NT being reasonable. Doubling with 4-3 in the majors is OK, at least you have a 50% shot at partner hitting your better suit. With 3-3, though, there's a very good chance you'll end up in a 4-3 fit, and this hand doesn't look good for playing in a Moysian, as they can probably force the long hand with ♣ leads.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2NT.

 

The alternative being X followed by 2NT,

or maybe a direct 3NT bid.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[barmar]

Do you really think 3NT has much of a chance?

 

You can bid like that over a weak 2, because there are enough points left in the deck that partner has a decent chance of having a bunch of them. You also hope that RHO won't have have a side entry after his long suit is established.

 

But after a Precision 2♣, there are 6-10 HCP split between LHO and CHO. So partner has on average only 4 HCP. And opener is strong enough that he should have some side entries.

 

I still bid 2NT, but I'm hoping that partner will have a long suit he can transfer to. This is another argument against the double -- you're not going to lose out on finding a real major fit.

[Apollo81]

2NT

[jtfanclub]

I wish I had a second ♣ stopper, but I still don't see any other bid but 2NT being reasonable. Doubling with 4-3 in the majors is OK, at least you have a 50% shot at partner hitting your better suit. With 3-3, though, there's a very good chance you'll end up in a 4-3 fit, and this hand doesn't look good for playing in a Moysian, as they can probably force the long hand with ♣ leads.

Once again, I find myself disagreeing with my betters.

 

I'm just imagining RHO's hand. Most likely he has 6 clubs, and I think the odds of my partner having anything that turns into a stopper seems grim with my second club being the 8 (even QT won't do it). It also seems safe to assume he has at least one other entry. So if my partner is balanced, they have at least 6 tricks in No Trump, probably 7. Actually playing 2NT seems hopeless, unless I could somehow get partner to play it (and he did have Qx).

 

If partner has a balanced hand and I X, we'll likely end up playing 2 of a major. While I agree that this isn't the greatest of hands for playing in a Moysian, I'd rather ruff in the long hand (if I have to) than watch all of those clubs go marching home. One point in favor of doubling is that virtually all of my points are in controls, which means even if we end up in a 7 card fit it's doubtful that they'll score their 6 trumps separately.

 

If partner does have a 5 card suit, we get to play in it, most likely at the 2 level. This seems a significant advantage over 2NT, where we end up a level higher and can't end up in diamonds at all.

 

The main problem with doubling and then passing it seems to me is that we'll miss a lot of iffy games, particularly 3NT. I guess in spite of all the HCP I'm just not real impressed with this hand. If partner has a 10 count he won't sign off across a double, and if he has a balanced 8 count with 1 or 2 4 card majors...well, we may have 26 hcp, but I just don't see a source of tricks.

 

Obviously, I'm missing something, but what?

[ArtK78]

Everyone agrees that a 2NT bid shows this sort of hand. But does that make it right?

 

Barmar points out that you are bidding over a constructive bid - Precision 2♣ - not a weak 2 bid. This makes it less likely that partner will have enough to make 3NT a reasonable contract. It also increases the chances that you could be doubled in 2NT.

 

I might bid 2NT if I had a better club stop, but with only Axx I don't like it at all.

 

The question then becomes what should you do? Double is a reasonable option, which has the obvious flaw that you don't have a 4 card major. Pass is not out of the question, but it is hard to pass with such a good hand. I am going to suggest a third option, one that was not given among the choices listed in the poll - 2♦.

 

If you overcall 2♦, you will get to most 3NT contracts that make. You are also bidding a good suit so you are unlikely to get doubled. And you are only one card off for your bid - the fifth diamond. Furthermore, if partner bids a major over 2♦, you know that you are likely to have an 8 card fit and can play in that major (I say likely because partner might bid a good 4 card major suit over your 2♦ bid).

 

There is at least one other benefit to bidding 2♦ - the possibility of right-siding the eventual 3NT contract. If partner has Qx or Qxx of clubs, you would want to play 3NT from his side of the table. You can't do that if you overcall 2NT. It may be wishful thinking, but it is at least possible to play 3NT from partner's side if you overcall 2♦.

[bid_em_up]

Double.

 

Find our fit now. I will assume that we are playing some sort of leb structure here.

If partner bids 2H/2S, I can pass without worry. If partner can bid 2N then 3M, I'll accept. If partner manages a 3M bid, I will cue 4C.

[Apollo81]

I wish I had a second ♣ stopper, but I still don't see any other bid but 2NT being reasonable.  Doubling with 4-3 in the majors is OK, at least you have a 50% shot at partner hitting your better suit.  With 3-3, though, there's a very good chance you'll end up in a 4-3 fit, and this hand doesn't look good for playing in a Moysian, as they can probably force the long hand with ♣ leads.

Once again, I find myself disagreeing with my betters.

 

I'm just imagining RHO's hand. Most likely he has 6 clubs, and I think the odds of my partner having anything that turns into a stopper seems grim with my second club being the 8 (even QT won't do it). It also seems safe to assume he has at least one other entry. So if my partner is balanced, they have at least 6 tricks in No Trump, probably 7. Actually playing 2NT seems hopeless, unless I could somehow get partner to play it (and he did have Qx).

 

If partner has a balanced hand and I X, we'll likely end up playing 2 of a major. While I agree that this isn't the greatest of hands for playing in a Moysian, I'd rather ruff in the long hand (if I have to) than watch all of those clubs go marching home. One point in favor of doubling is that virtually all of my points are in controls, which means even if we end up in a 7 card fit it's doubtful that they'll score their 6 trumps separately.

 

If partner does have a 5 card suit, we get to play in it, most likely at the 2 level. This seems a significant advantage over 2NT, where we end up a level higher and can't end up in diamonds at all.

 

The main problem with doubling and then passing it seems to me is that we'll miss a lot of iffy games, particularly 3NT. I guess in spite of all the HCP I'm just not real impressed with this hand. If partner has a 10 count he won't sign off across a double, and if he has a balanced 8 count with 1 or 2 4 card majors...well, we may have 26 hcp, but I just don't see a source of tricks.

 

Obviously, I'm missing something, but what?

Actually it's not playing in a 4-3 fit that I mind. In fact if I knew we didnt have game values I'd prefer to play 2M in a 4-3 major fit. The problem with Dbl is that I dont think I have a good rebid if partner bids 2M...surely passing is too wimpy. Forcing partner to the 3 level also doesnt seem like a great idea on this hand...

[pclayton]

Both Double and 2N have flaws.

 

The problem with 2N, as Bid-Em and JT mention is that we are a long way from making 8 tricks in NT. If RHO has semi-solid clubs and the ♠A, we won't be successful, unless partner has some unusual minimum perfecto like xxx, KQx, Qxxxx, xx. The problem with hands like this is that pard is passing 2N so you aren't any better off.

 

The problem with double is that there are many 8-9 point hands that give us a cold 3N that we will play in 2 major (I assume the doublers are passing 2M).

 

If pard holds a slightly better hand, it won't matter what we do. Pard will jump over a double, and move over 2N.

 

I like double. Even though the colors don't scare me, it has a lot less downside risk than 2N, and we have a lot better chance of finding a fit. We can still find 3N usually when its right. It's possible that the only thing at stake on this board is 4-6 IMPs for playing the right part score and I'll apologize if we are +140 when the other table bids and makes a 23 point NV 3N.

 

Art's 2♦ is too offbeat for me. Its the wrong description of the hand. While it might work out brilliantly, it could be very silly as well. Pard may have a weak hand and a 6 card major and a stiff diamond for instance.

[hrothgar]

The classic Precision 2♣ opening gets a lot of grief. (Many people describe it as one of the weak points of the system. I myself prfer methods in which 2♣ promises a 6+ card suit) Even so, it often causes significant trouble for the opponents. In this case, the 2♣ opening is forcing you to make an imperfect call at the two level where a 1♣ opening would have let use make a vvery descriptive 1NT overcall. Furthermore, LHO has a (reasonably) accurate idea what his partner is sitting on.

 

I don't think that there is any obvious answer with this hand. Both 2NT and double are reasonable calls. Either could work well. Either could end in disaster.

 

I lean towards a double, planning to pass a 2M rebid.

 

If partner has a good hand, we still have a decent chance of finding our game. If partner tables the expected 5 count, I'm going to be happier in a suit than playing 2N.