jtfanclub Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 [hv=d=n&v=n&n=skj762ht9dakjt7ca&s=s53hakq754d543cqj]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Contract is 5♥ So, opening lead is a club... Take the first club perforce, heart to the ace, club ruffed, and now... I ended up leading the jack of diamonds. Worked wonders when the diamond was offside, but even if it had been on it gives me several shots. Looking back, I still can't find a better way to play it. Is there actually a name for that play? Never tried it before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 What did you gain? They will just return a diamond and back you are stuck in dummy again.... it looks like at the point you reached the choice is between AK and a diamond, or exiting spade and hoping the diamond is onside. Your play would be reasonable if your diamonds were 9xx. I believe the technical term for your play is a "duck". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 I'm not sure what the best line is, but it seems that if you are going to duck a diamond it is better to do it at trick 2. As longs as the reds are splitting this gives you six hearts, four diamonds, one club for contract. Of course they may be able to take three first, but it seems like a reasonable shot. As jdonn mentions, if you play heart to South and ruff a club, and then duck, the diamond win and diamond return gives you trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 Doesn't seem to work if the queen is offside and you guess the spades wrong, or if they get a ♦ ruff. What's wrong with a heart to the ace followed by a ♦ finesse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 I don't understand the diamond play either, this only does wonders if the opponents misdefend. It may be best to play only one trump and take the diamond finesse. Or play as you did, cash AK of diamonds and a third diamond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 Doesn't seem to work if the queen is offside and you guess the spades wrong, or if they get a ♦ ruff. What's wrong with a heart to the ace followed by a ♦ finesse? Potentially, that if it loses they will return a club to force dummy to ruff, and you are back where JT was. But I agree it's actually a good play problem. I think I would ruff the club as he did then play AK of diamonds. One benefit is if the diamond queen drops I may well overcome trumps being 4-1 this way. I am open minded about this though, I wonder what the best play truly is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 indeed. this is a nice, non-trivial problem. helene's line puts some pressure on the defenders (if they don't force dummy, it should be plain sailing), so maybe that's something to try out in practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 What's wrong with pulling a low S off the board at trick 2? rho may well get it wrong. This also gives you the chance of dropping a S hon eventually. You also have the D hook in reserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Diamond duck at trick 2 is probably the best play for the contract. Any other play leaves you with tremendous communications problems. Works anytime both red suits split 3-2 and you don't lose 2 spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Art's line of a diamond duck is best I think. A close second is ♣A, ♥to hand, ♣ruff and now ♦AK, small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Art's line of a diamond duck is best I think. A close second is ♣A, ♥to hand, ♣ruff and now ♦AK, small. I'm no expert at these play problems but I think it's a very distant 2nd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Art's line of a diamond duck is best I think. A close second is ♣A, ♥to hand, ♣ruff and now ♦AK, small. I'm no expert at these play problems but I think it's a very distant 2nd. Kevin, if you are going to make an assertion like this, at least try to back it up, even if its wrong. Nobody gets anything out of: : I'm no expert at these play problems but I think it's a very distant 2nd. I'll try to play devil's advocate for you: 1. Under Art's line, RHO with ♦Qxx was going to be forced to win an early diamond trick and cannot profitably attack spades. Under my line, its possible LHO could ruff his partner's trick and shoot a spade through. 2. Under my line, its possible that a hand with a doubleton (not Ax) spade could also hold a doubleton diamond and pitch a spade on the 3rd diamond. If LHO holds ♠xx/♦xx, he can get his ♥Jxx (even Jx works, as RHO's 8xx gets promoted) promoted. If RHO holds xx/xx, then he might be able to uppercut our hearts with ♥8x. On the other hand, Art's line leads to failure when LHO wins a diamond with stiff Q or Qx and plays a spade. It also fails when RHO has a stiff Queen and can get to his partner's hand with the ♠A for a ♦ ruff. Not likely of course. So on balance, I still like Art's line the best, but I think they are both realistic lines and I haven't seen anything else mentioned thats as good as mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 I got something out of it. I thought about it for a second and thought Hmm yeah, I agree that Art's line sure seems much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Art's line of a diamond duck is best I think. A close second is ♣A, ♥to hand, ♣ruff and now ♦AK, small. I'm no expert at these play problems but I think it's a very distant 2nd. Kevin, if you are going to make an assertion like this, at least try to back it up, even if its wrong. Nobody gets anything out of: [...] So on balance, I still like Art's line the best, but I think they are both realistic lines and I haven't seen anything else mentioned thats as good as mine. Phil, you are giving someone else lessons on how to post, while at the same time you apparently post twice to the same thread without having read it. The line you call "mine" has been suggested twice before, and the one you call "Art's" was Ken's suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Phil, you are giving someone else lessons on how to post, while at the same time you apparently post twice to the same thread without having read it. The line you call "mine" has been suggested twice before, and the one you call "Art's" was Ken's suggestion. Quite right about credit for "my" line. Ken suggested the diamond duck, if made at all, should be made at trick 2. I merely elaborated on that suggestion by pointing out that it is probably the best line of play on the hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Art's line of a diamond duck is best I think. A close second is ♣A, ♥to hand, ♣ruff and now ♦AK, small. I'm no expert at these play problems but I think it's a very distant 2nd. Kevin, if you are going to make an assertion like this, at least try to back it up, even if its wrong. Nobody gets anything out of: [...] So on balance, I still like Art's line the best, but I think they are both realistic lines and I haven't seen anything else mentioned thats as good as mine. Phil, you are giving someone else lessons on how to post, while at the same time you apparently post twice to the same thread without having read it. The line you call "mine" has been suggested twice before, and the one you call "Art's" was Ken's suggestion. Arend: Does "mine" imply I originated it? I meant "mine" as the way "I" would play it. If "mine" does not mean that, or I need to give credit to someone else then I stand corrected. I also didn't see Kenberg's suggestion before Art's. Whatever. Kevin should understand that as an advancing player he should be trying to work out these problems instead of making a baseless claim about a line of play. I'm not his mother but (I think) he respects my opinion, but if he doesn't care about what I think it should come from him and not you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 If I prove the Riemann Hypothesis (probably the most famous unsolved math problem now that Wiles has taken care of Fermat's Last Theorem) I will demand proper credit. I think I will hold off on the lawsuit over the diamond duck. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 When I prove the Riemann Hypothesis (probably the most famous unsolved math problem now that Wiles has taken care of Fermat's Last Theorem) I will demand proper credit. I think I will hold off on the lawsuit over the diamond duck. :) Fixed that for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Goldbach's conjecture > Riemann's hypothesis :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dburn Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 indeed. this is a nice, non-trivial problem. helene's line puts some pressure on the defenders (if they don't force dummy, it should be plain sailing), so maybe that's something to try out in practice.It might be plain sailing, but then again it might not. Presumably if the jack of diamonds holds, you will draw trumps and repeat the diamond finesse - but if East is a strong player, the second diamond finesse might lose, whereupon you will go down at least one. Leading a middle diamond at trick two and simply playing for 3-2 breaks in both red suits seems the most promising approach. If I have understood aright, the line chosen at the table - heart to the ace, club ruff, middle diamond - makes the contract on almost no distribution of the outstanding cards assuming half-way competent defence, so can safely be dismissed. An alternative line - heart to the ace, club ruff, and three rounds of diamonds - appears to require a later successful guess in spades even if the queen of diamonds falls on the first two rounds of the suit. It is therefore indeed a "close second", but only to the original line in terms of futility, not to any sensible line in terms of probability of success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blofeld Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Goldbach's conjecture > Riemann's hypothesis :) Someone put a purported proof of the Goldbach Conjecture up today ... But anyway, I don't think it's more famous than than the Riemann Hypothesis (and it doesn't even compare in terms of importance). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 "if I can show this to be true then the conjecture will have been proven" wtf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Someone put a purported proof of the Goldbach Conjecture up today ... huh... Fermat's last theorem also had like a dozen alledged "proofs" coming in each week. Rumor goes that the french mathematics society person in charge of checking the proofs had a stamp saying something like "Dear Sir/Madam, Your proof of Fermat's Last Theorem has an error on page _____, line _____." and leave it to his assistant to fill in the blanks :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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