Takeout or Penalty

[Apollo81]

See above.

[pclayton]

Penalty. I think we covered this one earlier in the year.

[Finch]

Penalty. I think we covered this one earlier in the year.

We did. 'Standard' is penalty, but I happen to play it as take-out (in fact, my preference is that it's penalty against weak players and take-out against strong ones, but that's too complicated to bother with)

[jdonn]

my preference is that it's penalty against weak players and take-out against strong ones, but that's too complicated to bother with

I'm fairly confident in fact that that's the optimal agreement hehe.

[whereagles]

RS say "penalty"

 

EDIT: sorry. actually, they say take-out.

[karlson]

I'm pretty sure I'd want to play this as takeout. There are 3 possible strains in play, as well as defending.

 

It's takeout with everyone I've discussed it with for me.

[mike777]

See above.

this just came up last night..Penalty, partner has AKQ of trumps and much more. :)

[awm]

I'm sure standard is penalty.

 

In every partnership where I've discussed this, I play it as takeout.

 

Perhaps one point is the meaning of 1x-p-p-1y; 2x-p-p-dbl. I think this is universally played as takeout. I generally like a rule where my double in direct seat means more or less the same thing as partner's double would mean in balancing seat.

[P_Marlowe]

t/o, but with tolerance for the overcalled suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ArtK78]

A question for those of you who believe the double is for takeout.

 

Suppose partner, in direct seat, has a penalty double of 1x. He passes (as anyone would), hoping that you will reopen with a double if his LHO passes. Sure enough, LHO passes but, instead of reopening with a double, you reopen with 1y. Now RHO bids 2x.

 

Are you seriously arguing that he cannot double for penalties in this situation? And what is the usefulness of a double for takeout by a hand that could not double for takeout initially only to hear partner reopen with a suit bid?

 

By the way, it is absolutely clear that the "standard" interpretation of the double of 2x is a penalty double.

[dburn]

A question for those of you who believe the double is for takeout.

 

Suppose partner, in direct seat, has a penalty double of 1x.  He passes (as anyone would), hoping that you will reopen with a double if his LHO passes.  Sure enough, LHO passes but, instead of reopening with a double, you reopen with 1y.  Now RHO bids 2x.

 

Are you seriously arguing that he cannot double for penalties in this situation?  And what is the usefulness of a double for takeout by a hand that could not double for takeout initially only to hear partner reopen with a suit bid?

 

By the way, it is absolutely clear that the "standard" interpretation of the double of 2x is a penalty double.

Suppose you have:

 

♠76 ♥AQ32 ♦J4 ♣A7632

 

You would not double 1♠ for takeout, would you? Nor would you overcall (if you would, then you should probably defer lessons in bidding theory until you have learned something about bidding judgement).

 

When the auction proceeds 1♠ - pass - pass - 2♦; 2♠ to you, what call do you make? You would like double to be for takeout, but you cannot seriously see the use of such an agreement. There are many things you cannot see, but this does not mean that they are not there.

[pclayton]

A question for those of you who believe the double is for takeout.

 

Suppose partner, in direct seat, has a penalty double of 1x.  He passes (as anyone would), hoping that you will reopen with a double if his LHO passes.  Sure enough, LHO passes but, instead of reopening with a double, you reopen with 1y.  Now RHO bids 2x.

 

Are you seriously arguing that he cannot double for penalties in this situation?  And what is the usefulness of a double for takeout by a hand that could not double for takeout initially only to hear partner reopen with a suit bid?

 

By the way, it is absolutely clear that the "standard" interpretation of the double of 2x is a penalty double.

Suppose you have:

 

♠76 ♥AQ32 ♦J4 ♣A7632

 

You would not double 1♠ for takeout, would you? Nor would you overcall (if you would, then you should probably defer lessons in bidding theory until you have learned something about bidding judgement).

 

When the auction proceeds 1♠ - pass - pass - 2♦; 2♠ to you, what call do you make? You would like double to be for takeout, but you cannot seriously see the use of such an agreement. There are many things you cannot see, but this does not mean that they are not there.

The problem is that you can bid with this hand. I like 3 heabs or 3 clearts.

 

Of course playing this system, I can say "penalty double".

 

Seriously, with David's hand I don't mind 3♥. If you have a true penalty double which happens a fair amount of the time, you have to wait for a reopening double which usually doesn't happen.

 

I think the real problem hand is something like a 3=3=3=4 12 count where you'd like double as card-showing.

[cherdano]

3 Hearts on AQxx? Is this forcing? Can we almost GF opposite a balancing 2♦ overcall? Or do we want to play 3H on a 4-2 fit?

[whereagles]

1. A question for those of you who believe the double is for takeout.

 

Suppose partner, in direct seat, has a penalty double of 1x. He passes (as anyone would), hoping that you will reopen with a double if his LHO passes. Sure enough, LHO passes but, instead of reopening with a double, you reopen with 1y. Now RHO bids 2x.

 

Are you seriously arguing that he cannot double for penalties in this situation? And what is the usefulness of a double for takeout by a hand that could not double for takeout initially only to hear partner reopen with a suit bid?

 

2. By the way, it is absolutely clear that the "standard" interpretation of the double of 2x is a penalty double.

1. If you wanna dbl for penalties, you do the usual stuff: wait for pard dbl again.

 

2. Clear to whom? I've had this situation come up a couple of times with several different pards. All my pards that dbled turned up to have a.... you guessed it: a take-out dbl.

[ArtK78]

I stand corrected.

 

Quite frankly, I have not run into this situation in a very long time. As has been mentioned by me and others, the "standard" treatment of the double here is penalties.

 

I see that using the double for takeout is better.

[jdonn]

3 Hearts on AQxx? Is this forcing? Can we almost GF opposite a balancing 2♦ overcall? Or do we want to play 3H on a 4-2 fit?

Phil seems to have thought partner doubled rather than overcalled. Of course then the usual issues with responsive doubles apply. If the opponents are bidding a minor you might have both majors, if they are bidding a major you might have both minors.

[whereagles]

Suppose you have:

 

♠76  ♥AQ32  ♦J4  ♣A7632

 

You would not double 1♠ for takeout, would you?

you know... I might just be tempted to butt-in a dbl. There's a lot to be said for taking action as early as possible. Even if it might cost you a crash landing into the 5-2 or 4-2 fit.

[Walddk]

Suppose you have:

 

♠76  ♥AQ32  ♦J4  ♣A7632

 

You would not double 1♠ for takeout, would you?

you know... I might just be tempted to butt-in a dbl. There's a lot to be said for taking action as early as possible. Even if it might cost you a crash landing into the 5-2 or 4-2 fit.

If you have sub-minimum values for a take-out double, you should at least have an ideal shape. Your example hand is far from ideal. And you can't even venture an Equal Level Conversion (ELC) over a 2♦ response.

 

However, if you have ...

 

xx

AQxx

Axxxx

Jx

 

... it's more appealing to double, because you can convert to 2♦ over a 2♣ response if ELC is part of your agreements.

 

Roland

[pclayton]

3 Hearts on AQxx? Is this forcing? Can we almost GF opposite a balancing 2♦ overcall? Or do we want to play 3H on a 4-2 fit?

The thread deals with the meaning of a double of 2S. I thought Dburn was discussing the bidding problem of what to do with this hand after a 2S call.

 

Discussing what to after a 2D balance is somewhat off-topic.

[Walddk]

Back to the topic. I play double as take-out. If I have a penalty of 2x, I must obviously pass, and it's not impossible at all that partner re-opens with a double now that he has shown his long suit already when he bid 1y.

 

Roland

[dburn]

3 Hearts on AQxx? Is this forcing? Can we almost GF opposite a balancing 2♦ overcall? Or do we want to play 3H on a 4-2 fit?

The thread deals with the meaning of a double of 2S. I thought Dburn was discussing the bidding problem of what to do with this hand after a 2S call.

 

Discussing what to after a 2D balance is somewhat off-topic.

I am a bit lost here. True, the original post asked for the "standard" meaning of double after 1x - pass - pass - 1y; 2x. In the example I gave, the auction was of the form 1x - pass - pass - 2y; 2x. I guess that might make a difference, but not so much of a difference as to be "off-topic". We can modify my original example easily enough:

 

♠76 ♥AQ32 ♦J4 ♣A7632

 

RHO opens 1♦ and you pass (if you would double or overcall 1♥ or 2♣, you need read no further - as Bobby Wolff remarked, I admire you but I don't want your results). This is passed round to partner who bids 1♠, whereat RHO bids 2♦. What call do you make?

 

Frances may have had a discussion on the topic similar to one I had with members of what was then (and may still be) the cool school; I can recall someone (Jonathan Cooke, perhaps?) explaining to me that you should double bad players for penalty but good players for takeout. That may be theoretically best, but I can see one or two problems arising in the context of "full disclosure"; it would be a trifle awkward to have to ask LHO how bad a player RHO is before doubling.

 

Don't get me wrong - I cast my vote for "penalty" because as ArtK78 correctly says, that is the standard meaning insofar as there is a "standard". But the original poster was quite right to include an option that "it depends on x and y".

 

People who play five-card majors and rebid their major at the two level in this kind of sequence will not have a hand consistent with being doubled for a huge penalty. Even the bad players are getting better these days, and you don't come by 1100 penalties nearly as often as you used to.

 

But people who play systems where a 1m opening may be 2, 1 or even 0 cards (prepared 1♣, Precision 1♦ and the like) might well take a chance on rebidding their minor with a ropey six-card suit. I know this for a fact - I used to do it myself, but I made sure I had garnered several master points before doing it against Jonathan Cooke.

[MFA]

I play it as penalty, but I have no strong feelings about it. It's a nice one to have discussed with partner.

 

I agree that it's more tempting to play penalty doubles here against weak opponents. This is a situation where a bad player might rebid his suit WAY to aggressively.

[benlessard]

In Imps Penalty in MP i guess both methods are playable.

 

The fact you pass and the fact partner didnt X or made a intermediate jump shift make game a bit unlikely. So its reasonnable to use the X for penalty instead of a neg X only for competitive purposes. In MP competing is so important that i have no problem with playing neg X.

 

Since its a rare sequence i dont waste too much enegy on this 1 and play standard= penalty

[whereagles]

If you have sub-minimum values for a take-out double, you should at least have an ideal shape. Your example hand is far from ideal. And you can't even venture an Equal Level Conversion (ELC) over a 2♦ response.

Well, I know that, of course. The point was that it might just be statistically favourable to dbl despite the risk pard bids diamonds.

[whereagles]

♠76 ♥AQ32 ♦J4 ♣A7632

 

RHO opens 1♦ and you pass (if you would double or overcall 1♥ or 2♣, you need read no further - as Bobby Wolff remarked, I admire you but I don't want your results).

I wouldn't mind to have to have Marshall Miles' results :(