What does 4NT mean?

[pippo13]

We play SAYC.

My hand:

♠ A K 9

♥ 8 3

♦ Q 10 8 2

♣ K 10 7 5

 

Partner opens 1♥

RHO pass

I bid 2NT

LHO pass

Partner bids 4NT

Is he asking for aces or suggesting 6NT if I have extra values?

Or what?

 

His hand:

♠ Q 8 3

♥ A K 10 7 6 5 2

♦ A 9

♣ Q

[jtfanclub]

We play SAYC.

My hand:

♠ A K 9

♥ 8 3

♦ Q 10 8 2

♣ K 10 7 5

 

Partner opens 1♥

RHO pass

I bid 2NT

That's not a SAYC 2NT.

 

Modern SAYC (at least since the late 80s) uses Jacoby 2NT, where 2NT is a game forcing raise. Then 4NT is a clear Blackwood bid.

 

http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/...gle%20pages.pdf

 

In the Old SAYC, prior to 1980 or so, 2NT was 13-15 balanced. You aren't strong enough for that.

 

So, he's asking for Aces, but he's going to be disappointed.

[Echognome]

SAYC uses a natural forcing 2NT. So 4NT should be quantitative.

 

Many pairs choose to use 2NT as an artificial raise in opener's major. That is *not* SAYC, even though it is a common treatment.

 

You may say that SAYC is different, but the SAYC card is still available online to view.

[BillHiggin]

SAYC uses a natural forcing 2NT. So 4NT should be quantitative.

 

Many pairs choose to use 2NT as an artificial raise in opener's major. That is *not* SAYC, even though it is a common treatment.

 

You may say that SAYC is different, but the SAYC card is still available online to view.

RESPONSES AND LATER BIDDING AFTER A 1♥ OR A 1♠ OPENING

1♥ and 1♠ openings show a five-card or longer suit. Responses:

1 ♥ — 1♠ = at least four spades, 6 or more points. Tends to deny a heart fit.

— 1NT = 6–10 points, denies four spades or three hearts. NOT forcing.

— 2♣, 2♦ = 11 points or more, promises at least four of the suit.

— 2♥ = three-card or longer heart support; 6–10 dummy points.

— 2NT = Game-forcing raise (Jacoby 2NT), 13+ dummy points. Asks

opener to show a short suit to help responder evaluate slam prospects.

— 2♠, 3♣, 3♦ = strong jump shifts. Invites a slam.

— 3♥ = limit raise (10–12 dummy points with three or more hearts).

— 3NT = 15–17 HCP, balanced hand with two-card support for partner.

— 4♥ = usually five+ hearts, a singleton or void, and fewer than 10 HCP.

 

Copied directly from the SAYC booklet! 2N is indeed Jacoby 2N

[jtfanclub]

Many pairs choose to use 2NT as an artificial raise in opener's major. That is *not* SAYC, even though it is a common treatment.

 

You may say that SAYC is different, but the SAYC card is still available online to view.

The link I made was the official link to SAYC, which was created for ACBL Yellow Card events. That's the booklet they pass out for Yellow Card events.

 

I don't know what link you're looking at, but if it doesn't agree with the link I gave, it's wrong. Yellow Card is created and updated by an ACBL Committee. By definition, what they say is Yellow Card IS Yellow Card.

 

Again, if you play the old Yellow Card prior to the Jacoby 2NT being added 20+ years ago, your hand is not strong enough to make that bid.

[Echognome]

Fair enough. I could very well be mistaken. That was my understanding.

 

Pretty clear if 2NT is natural, then 4NT is quantitative. If 2NT shows a raise, then 4NT is as agreed, but typically some form of blackwood.

 

Whether or not the hand is worth 2NT if natural and forcing I will leave to the judgment of persons playing the system. For all we know they only open 13 counts.

[ArtK78]

Modern SAYC (at least since the late 80s) uses Jacoby 2NT, where 2NT is a game forcing raise. Then 4NT is a clear Blackwood bid.

 

In the Old SAYC, prior to 1980 or so, 2NT was 13-15 balanced. You aren't strong enough for that.

That is a very interesting comment.

 

If I remember correctly, SAYC was invented about 20 years ago. So there was no "pre-1980" SAYC.

 

I don't have my library of old ACBL Bulletins to check this, but that is my recollection.

[ArtK78]

For once, my recollection was correct. :blink:

 

I googled "SAYC" and found this on the SWAN Games website:

 

"SAYC was originated in the late 80's by the ACBL with the intent of providing a 'no frills' easy to use system with any pick up partner. The notes we offer reflect, for the most part, a standard summary of SAYC as it was originally intended. While the BRIDGE FORUM notes essentially adhere to standard SAYC, they also reflect several variations, which, while common and popular, are not considered "standard" in any published version of SAYC that we have yet seen...."

 

Many players assume that SAYC is Standard American. They are not the same thing. Standard American has been around for decades, and traces its roots back to Goren. Over the years the variations of "Standard American" made it impossible to recognize. Hence, the ACBL created SAYC - a stripped down and standardized version of Standard American which, as the SWAN website correctly states, was primarily for use by pick up partnerships at tournaments. SAYC convention cards - printed on yellow paper (SAYC stands for Standard American Yellow Card) were made available for use at all tournaments.

[lexlogan]

SAYC uses a natural forcing 2NT. So 4NT should be quantitative.

 

Many pairs choose to use 2NT as an artificial raise in opener's major. That is *not* SAYC, even though it is a common treatment.

 

You may say that SAYC is different, but the SAYC card is still available online to view.

Yes, go to www.acbl.org , search for SAYC, and follow any link. You'll see that 2NT is a game-forcing raise in response to 1 of a major, as it always has been in Standard American Yellow Card (developed in the late 80's.) Perhaps you're looking at the responses to 1C or 1D, where 2NT is 13-15 balanced.

[neilkaz]

As stated by others. If 2NT shows a specific range of HCP (like 11-12 in SEF (I think) or 13-15 in pre Jacoby 2NT US-type systems, then 4NT is quant, but if it is a GF trump raise then 4NT is Blackwood or which ever RKCB you play.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[pippo13]

Thanks everybody.

It is my fault.

I was playing with an old friend I had'n seen for long, and took for granted he played "the old way".

No agreement, no party.

Thank you for your attention

[neilkaz]

Thanks everybody.

It is my fault.

I was playing with an old friend I had'n seen for long, and took for granted he played "the old way".

No agreement, no party.

Thank you for your attention

So you passed 4NT with your min. How bad could that be here ? Slam looks anti percentage and 4NT looks rather cold.

 

Anyhow, welcome to the forum and please keep posting hands ! .. neilkaz ..