Those Devils

[han]

Playing against two devilish opponents I had this bidding problem from Hell:

 

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=skq7xxhkqjxdcaj10x]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(2D*)-??[/hv]

 

2D was mini-multi, showing a poor, undisciplined weak 2 in a major. Your agreement is that double shows 13-15 balanced or a strong hand, the rest is natural. What is your call?

[pclayton]

Passing is possible, but I'm scared to death LHO will pass with a pile of diamonds and I'm screwed. I'll start with 2♠ and see where it goes.

 

I don't think I'm good enough for double. I would anticipate it continues (2♥) - pass - (pass) and I think I need a better hand for 2♠.

[ArtK78]

Well, you certainly have a strong hand.

 

Double.

 

You can't pass, because 2♦ could be passed out! LHO may have long diamonds and a weak hand.

 

A natural 2♠ overcall is clearly inadequate. Game could be a claim opposite Jxxx of spades and an honor in any of your three suits.

 

3NT (somewhat imaginitive) could be the winner, but then there is that problem about LHO and all those diamonds. Or, for that matter, CHO and all those diamonds.

 

You really don't have any alternative to double at this point in the auction.

[hrothgar]

Ick

 

I'm going to bid 2♠, but I'm not thrilled about it

 

What's the old saying "If I can survive this bid..."???

[han]

Some thoughts:

 

What suit do you think RHO is more likely to hold for their red (but undisciplined) weak 2?

 

I considered bidding 2NT, any takers?

[MFA]

Double.

 

This is not so terrible, really. Why shouldn't something good happen (for once)?

If I choose 2♠ now, apart from all the other bad things that might happen (we have a very flexible hand), this could easily be his suit, since I have just one more spade than I have hearts.

[Echognome]

I think double then double should be penalty. That's my course of action.

[jdonn]

2♠ seems obvious. It won't obviously work, but it's obvious to do since if you accept the hand isn't good enough to double there is no other choice.

[whereagles]

Yup, 2♠ is canonical.

[jtfanclub]

I know that, as a Power Doubler, I tend to double weaker than most, but c'mon, this is a 3 loser hand. Maybe you guys just don't respond the same way my partners do. My partners would pass 2♠ with hand where 6 in a black suit is ice cold.

 

One major factor in favor of calling this a strong hand is that partner doesn't know at first that this is a strong hand. If he leaves in the 2♦X, he's expecting to set it across a 13-15 balanced hand.

 

I think the odds of this...

 

I would anticipate it continues (2♥) - pass - (pass)

 

are slim...in fact, if that's the auction, I can almost guarantee that he's picked the wrong suit (my four hearts strongly implies a misfit, and if my partner's sitting there with a heart void he'll find something to say). If double followed by double isn't penalty I guess I'll only get 100 per undertrick.

 

I expect the auction to go:

 

2♦ X P P

2♥

 

where my partner converts it with diamonds and some strength, after which I'll just pass and see where he takes me. If he bids 3♦ I'll pretend like I've got the 15 point balanced and bid 3NT. If he passes 2♥, we're back to 100 an undertrick. Here's hoping that he finds something more exciting to say.

 

Sorry for posting my opinion on the big boys' board...

[neilkaz]

Clearly a strong hand and I will show that to PD by doubling. We may have a slam or the opps may go for 1100 vul and soon give up this method where they bid a suit they don't have and preempt you less when they have ♠ (since you can bid ♥ at the 2 level) and announce to your side that their weak 2 is junkie and whackable.

 

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..

[gwnn]

Clearly a strong hand and I will show that to PD by doubling. We may have a slam or the opps may go for 1100 vul and soon give up this method where they bid a suit they don't have and preempt you less when they have ♠ (since you can bid ♥ at the 2 level) and announce to your side that their weak 2 is junkie and whackable.

 

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..

How will you differentiate the cases when you have slam from the ones they go for 1100 and the ones when you have +620 (possibly them going for -670!)? There is great danger that we have a black double-fit and they have a red double fit, who knows how many total tricks...

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I would pass, ... and I may regret it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[zasanya]

Hi,

 

I would pass, ... and I may regret it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

I was hesitating to post my bid of pass and then i saw your post .Thanks .Pass. ;)

[Codo]

double is easy. What can go wrong? I just need good follow ups.

 

2 Spade can work too of course, but this hand is not just about spades, it is about three suits and/or NT.

 

I would love opps who pass this hand ;)

[Finch]

double is easy. What can go wrong? I just need good follow ups.

If you think this is easy I really think you haven't grasped the problem.

 

and

 

I think double then double should be penalty. That's my course of action.

 

This hand is very suitable for double (balanced or strong) then double, penalty. However most people who play this initial double play the second double as take-out (whether you are allowed to have 13-15 balanced as part of your take-out usually depends on the form of scoring).

 

If you were dealt xx AKxx AKx KQJx you would want double-then-double-2S as takeout (2D x 2H P P 2NT is traditionally a 2NT opening so also works).

 

There are three problems with an initial double:

1. You don't actually have a strong hand under the usual definition on this auction

2. You don't know what to do when 2M is passed back to you

3. After LHO passes 2Dx showing long diamonds you can find yourself defending 2Dx (what is partner supposed to bid looking at a 2344 6-count?)

 

I prefer an immediate 2NT overcall to double. At least that's an accurate description of my high card strength and will get to the right major suit fit. It does have a few glaring deficiencies, mind you.

 

There are two problems with an initial pass

1. It may end the auction

2. You still don't know what to when 2M is passed back to you, as double is take-out

 

There is one problem with an initial 2S overcall

1. It may end the auction, particularly in the nasty case where you have a big fit with RHO

 

All in all, I'll live with the 2S overcall. Not happily, but anything else is (much) worse.

[inquiry]

I know that hannie listed the system played (2D was mini-multi, showing a poor, undisciplined weak 2 in a major. Your agreement is that double shows 13-15 balanced or a strong hand, the rest is natural. ) so the following is not an option as what to do on this hand, but let me make another plug for multi-versus-multi. (under the conditions given, i would bid 2S's).

 

Playing multi-versus-multi, a double of 2D shows one of the following,

1. A natural call of 2♥ or 2♠
   
2. A balanced 19 to bad 22 hcp
   
3. A 19+ three suited hand
   

This isn't quite 19, but it has great shape and fair intermediates (JT of clubs). A couple of possible auctions...

 

(2D)-X-(P)-P, partner passes with diamonds only, this could be a blood letting

 

(2D)-X-(2H)-X, partners double is "takeout", you can convert of bid on to game/slam

 

(2D)-X-(2H)-P

(2S)-?

Here you can pass hopoing partner balances back in with a double, or you can bid 3C which shows the 19 point three suiter, short in diamonds.

 

(2D)-X-(P)-2H, here partners 2H bid is paradox, and he can still have a spade fit. With reasonable hearts and some values, he could bid 2S instead of 2H. Bid 2S

 

(2D)-X-(P)-2S <<--- this shows a heart fit and some game interest, you can do a lot of things, but 4H is minimum contract

 

(2D)-X-(p)-2NT <<-- 9+ hcp, some game interest, now you can show your three suiter with short diamonds. Slam is in the offing, becasue if partner had great diamonds he could haved passed 2Dx, so his values/legnth rates to be in one of your three suits.

 

etc.

 

To see more about multi-versus-multi, see chris ryall's webpage (note new webaddress).

 

http://www.chrisryall.net/bridge/multi-v-multi-2d.htm

[benlessard]

2S is it for me. Not strong enough for a X since so many bad thing can happen.

 

I assume that passing and 2S is an overcall. So a direct 2S shouldnt be complete garbage.

[Codo]

double is easy. What can go wrong? I just need good follow ups.

If you think this is easy I really think you haven't grasped the problem.

You are right, I really don´t grasp the problem:

 

I doubled to show a strong hand. I need zero HCps and just a fit in one major to make it a good game. If you don´t play this hand as strong, where is your borderline? A Gameforcing opposite a non fitting yarb? Of course, if your definition is 13-15 OR 19+ HCPS, then X is not good. You just have 17 HCPs.

But if you strong double is trick orientated, the playing strength of this 17 HCPs is not worse then KQx, KQJx, KQx,ATx. In both cases you need just a little more then a fit to make 4 in a major.

 

But to look at the problems:

 

It continues after 2 ♦ X with:

 

1. pass pass pass: You bid 2 Spade and show a hand which is not just about spades but which does not want to defend 2 Diamond X.

 

2. pass pass 2 Heart. Now you can bid 2 Spade and you showed a good hand with spades but not an one suiter.

 

3. pass pass 2 Spade. Now you are not worse placed then after your 2 Spade bid. You may try 2 NT, pass or, if avaiable a second double.

 

Same sequences are true of course if lho had bid 2 Hearts before.

 

4. What if pd bids a major instead of passing? Now you are even better placed then after an original 2 Spade bid.

 

5. What if he bids 2 NT Lebensohl? I would bid 3 Club and 3 Spade after pds possible 3 Diamond bid. He will understand what kind of hand I have. (No gameforcing because of my 3 Club bid but no tolerance for diamonds and better spades then Hearts)

I agree that this is a level too high, so this is a risk. But what will you do after your 2 Spade bid and pds 2 NT Lebensohl or 3 Diamond to play?You hope that this is a better place and maybe you are right. But this is a small target to aim at.

 

6. What if pd bids 3 Club? You hit gold.

 

7. One problem is when pd bids 3 Diamond (similar to the Lebensohl approach). This is a real problem. But if I bid 3 Spade after his 3 Diamond bid, I had shown my hand as spades with outside values and no interesst in diamonds. Of course the trouble is not over. But same is true after a two spade bid in the first round.

 

8. What will happen if rho jumps to 3 or even 4 Heart as pass or correct? Maybe evil pd will bid 5 Diamond then, but if he thinks that he can surive this after a bid which at first look simply promised 13-15 balanced, you may still get to the right spot.

 

So I agree that the hand is tricky, but I don´t see why double should be worse then 2 Spade.

 

There is more then one problem with 2 Spade:

 

You may play 2 Spade in a silly non fit with 4 Heart/3 NT or 5 Club on ice.

Will pd really bid more with x,Axxx,xxxx,KQxx?

You may play in 4 Spade while another strain is preverable.

You give partner no good picture of your playing strength and your tolerance of Clubs and Hearts.

 

The good thing is that the chance to play x Diamond is smaller and that you have your five card suit shown at once.

[jtfanclub]

There are three problems with an initial double:

1. You don't actually have a strong hand under the usual definition on this auction

2. You don't know what to do when 2M is passed back to you

3. After LHO passes 2Dx showing long diamonds you can find yourself defending 2Dx (what is partner supposed to bid looking at a 2344 6-count?)

 

For #1...

I prefer an immediate 2NT overcall to double. At least that's an accurate description of my high card strength and will get to the right major suit fit.

Or you can deduct one point for the poor diamond support...which gets you right back to X. Remember, when you X, partner won't take you for a strong hand, he'll take you for 13-15 balanced. If X was strong only, I'd bid 2♠. As it is, I can either take it up in value a point (to strong X) or down a point (to 13-15 balanced) depending upon partner's response.

 

For #2...can you make a hand where (if partner's X would be responsive or takeout) the auction would go 2♦ X 2♥ P P P, and you'd be unhappy about it?

 

For #3, at this vulnerability, I'm perfectly happy playing it at 2♦X'd. It's unlikely that partner has only 4 diamonds for the leave-in.

[han]

I agree with all that Frances said about the problems of doubling. In particular I agree that double followed by double shows a strong takeout double. And I also agree that 2DX passed out is generally not good news.

 

It continues after 2 ♦ X with:

 

1. pass pass pass: You bid 2 Spade and show a hand which is not just about spades but which does not want to defend 2 Diamond X.

 

After pass pass pass you bid 2S? Sounds good!

[keylime]

Without a regular multi defense, I bid a natural 2♠.

 

With my regular multi defense, I double to show a better multi hand of at least intermediate strength.

 

With the ACBL standard defense, I hate doubling - lots of problems if it comes back around to you. And if RHO has the spade preempt, at least you'll have half of a chance of saving a good score.

[TheoKole]

If you play Multi vs. Multi you can double the 2 diamond bid, to imply an opener with spades, or an opener with hearts or a 2NT opener or 19+ HCP at least 444 in three suits (if you play this option).

 

The subsequent auction is complex but if you and your partner have it down pat, then the opps 2 diamond multi bid becomes easy to handle.

 

Against Mini Multi the Multi vs Multi structure is even safer since you don't have to worry about a 2NT opener in the opener's hand.

 

Theo

[nige1]

Dealer: East Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ KQ7xx ♥ KQJx ♦ [space] ♣ AJ10x

(2♦*)-??] Playing against two devilish opponents I had this bidding problem from Hell. 2♦ was mini-multi, showing a poor, undisciplined weak 2 in a major. Your agreement is that double shows 13-15 balanced or a strong hand, the rest is natural. What is your call?

 

double is easy. What can go wrong? I just need good follow ups.

 

2 Spade can work too of course, but this hand is not just about spades, it is about three suits and/or NT.

 

I would love opps who pass this hand :)

 

IMO 2♠=10, _X=6, _P=4, 2N=3

 

A possible problem with _X is that 2♦X= may not compare well with 6♠= at other tables :)

[han]

I bid 2S, partner passed, I made 5 and my opponents made fun of my partner. The usual.