is this an opening?

[jtfanclub]

- they believe this hand is worth a 12-count (as you state you do)

I do not believe it's worth a 12 count, which is why I don't open it in standard (unless I'm playing the opps instead of the cards).

 

However, NT hands frequently aren't worth their count. They may be 4333, or 4432 with crappy suits (as this one is), or 5422 with *really* crappy suits (I don't usually open 5422 1NT unless the suits are crappy). I've never taken too close a look at it, but I'd guess that the K&R Evaluation of my average 12 HCP 1NT opener is around 2 points lower than my average 12 HCP suit bids.

 

 

http://www.gg.caltech.edu/~jeff/#software

 

This hand is a 9.4 (DK 10+) in K&R. A more typical 12 hcp 1NT hand:

 

Axx

KJxx

QJxx

Jx

 

Is a 10.45 (DK 11-). Still well below 12. A typical 12 hcp 1♥ hand:

 

AJx

KJxxx

QJxx

x

 

That's a 12.2 (DK 11+). So from a K&R standpoint, calling this a 1NT opening is a small lie, but calling it a 1 of a suit bid is a bigger lie.

 

Besides- it's not like there's a suit I want to show off.

[mike777]

In the OP nowhere do they ask or mention anything about a 12 count. I do think it is safe to assume some sort of a 2/1 standard system though.

 

I don't understand all this chatter about whether this is a 12 count or not, why is that important? If it this is an important issue then you need to state why a 12 count matters.

 

If you open light then this is fine who needs a 12 count...if you open sound, I mean sound, then you need much more than 12 and this is not close. IF you open random then just say so. :P

[mikeh]

I'd open it playing in my current partnerships because we play either 10-12 or 11-14 1N, and this hand looks like it belongs in those ranges... altho this is a clear rock bottom minimum in the 11-14 range.... But otherwise, this is a pass, and a pass in all seats.

[Fluffy]

Many of the points do not apply on this hand, spaceially about quick tricks :P

 

 

[hv=n=sqxxxxhakxxdxxcxx&w=shxdak109xxxcak10xx&e=s109xxxhqj10xdxxcqx&s=sakjh9xxxdqjcj9xx]399|300| S - W - N - E

1♣-6♦-X-ps

ps-ps[/hv]

 

opening this hand led to -1090.

[Guest Jlall]

I would pass, but I will say that most successful players I know would not pass even in a standard system. People reading BBF will get a skewed idea about what most people/experts would consider an opening bid because I would expect only about 20 % to pass this hand.

 

I would open this one in fourth seat almost always because we just rate to have more points than them and have some major suit length, and because it brings cardplay into the game where I think I will have an advantage.

 

I would open in third if partner was a soundish opener like myself, just to protect him. If you pass this in first and third then you are just risking too much. Partner will think I might open light anyways in third so I don't feel too bad. If my style is to pass a hand like this or AQxxx Kxxxx xx x I just feel like in third I have to open this or we will lose too many partscores to a passout.

[ArtK78]

4th seat is a difficult problem. At IMPS I would still pass, as my expectation is negative. At club matchpoints I have painfully learnt never, ever to pass a hand out in 4th seat, I always get a bad result.

This is an interesting point of view.

 

The other night I was playing in an ACBL matchpoint pairs game on BBO with my regular partner. We open light (10 HCP for one of a suit, 10-12 1NT) in 1st and 2nd seats nonvulnerable. On board 1, no one vul, the bidding was pass-pass to me. I looked at a balanced 12 count including Axxx of spades. I knew that my partner was limited to 9 HCP, so I chose to pass. The hand was passed out and we got over 90% of the matchpoints.

 

Most standard bidders would have opened my hand. I knew that my side had a maximum of 21 HCP between us, and possibly less. I didn't know that the hand would be passed out, but I did not want to give the opponents a blueprint on how to play the hand.

 

So, it is not always wrong to pass out a hand (then again, my LHO, who was in 4th seat, probably agrees with Frances).

[Al_U_Card]

My only consideration would be to not open this in 4th seat, but with 15 pearson points, I would on principle. Rule of 20, a rebid (2 actually) and 2 def. QT's, it is a 1 ♣ anytime....perhaps this helps to explain my results... :P

[Guest Jlall]

Art, Frances specifically said she always gets a bad result in a club game at MP when she passes out a hand in FOURTH seat. Your story reinforces that point.

[ArtK78]

My only consideration would be to not open this in 4th seat, but with 15 pearson points, I would on principle. Rule of 20, a rebid (2 actually) and 2 def. QT's, it is a 1 ♣ anytime....perhaps this helps to explain my results... :P

This hand has 15 Pearson Points only if you believe that it has 12 HCP. I don't think that it does.

[ArtK78]

Art, Frances specifically said she always gets a bad result in a club game at MP when she passes out a hand in FOURTH seat. Your story reinforces that point.

No doubt true. However, the key decision that led to the passout was mine, as I had the best hand at the table. As might be suspected, partner had a maximum first seat pass. But he had a doubleton spade and it is virtually impossible for our side to go plus on the hand.

[kenrexford]

opening this hand led to -1090.

If you add the heart Q-J to partner's hand, he has ♠AKJ ♥QJxx ♦QJ ♣J9xx, a 15-count. I doubt anyone would pass this, and yet 6♦X makes because of a freak layout. So, I'm not sure that's a good argument.

[ArtK78]

One does not double slam bids based on high card points when it is clear that the hand has freakish distribution.

 

Tricks beat slams - not high card points.

[kenrexford]

One does not double slam bids based on high card points when it is clear that the hand has freakish distribution.

 

Tricks beat slams - not high card points.

A-K combos look like tricks.

 

I'd say that one does double 6♦, and expects a wall of -1090's.

[1eyedjack]

The suggestion is that it is the decision to open that led to the -1090 score. It is unclear to me that passing would have ended differently.

[han]

What, nobody opens 1S in third?

[dburn]

4th seat is a difficult problem. At IMPS I would still pass, as my expectation is negative. At club matchpoints I have painfully learnt never, ever to pass a hand out in 4th seat, I always get a bad result.

I used to get the same bad results as Frances until I started playing with Callaghan, who explained it to me in words that even I could understand. "You should always open the bidding in fourth position", he said, "because if your opponents could make something, they would have opened the bidding in first or third position."

 

Determined to teach him a lesson, I opened a Precision 1♦ in fourth position on something like ♠Axx ♥KQx ♦J9xx ♣J8x, vulnerable against not at matchpoints. He responded 1NT and made an overtrick. Since then, the only potentially bad hand I can recall for the methods occurred when I opened a 4=1=4=4 eleven count in fourth position, and the next hand overcalled 4♥ (of course, he had been lurking with eight solid hearts on the first round).

 

"At last", I thought, "Callaghan will see the error of his ways", but of course at every other table the bidding had been 4♥ - pass - pass - double, leaving our side to choose whether to concede 690 or 800.

[mike777]

interesting very....

 

 

If partner opens light in second seat but passes I often pass with a P count of 14 (hcp and spades) in 4th seat. If partner opens sound in second seat but passes I would open very often in 4th seat.

[beatrix45]

:unsure: Third seat non-vul. Planning to pass any response.

[neilkaz]

I pass in first and 2nd seat, but if PD opens I won't criticize. I open 1♣ in 3rd or 4th seat and take my chances.

 

I open rather aggressively and this, like most bad 12 HCP hands is a close decision for me.

[ArtK78]

One does not double slam bids based on high card points when it is clear that the hand has freakish distribution.

 

Tricks beat slams - not high card points.

A-K combos look like tricks.

 

I'd say that one does double 6♦, and expects a wall of -1090's.

Just last night I held:

 

AKxx

Txx

QJxx

Jx

 

And heard the opponents bid to 6♥ in an uncontested auction:

 

1♦ - 4NT

5♥ - 6♥

 

Yes, that was the auction. I did not double. 6♥ was cold without much to the play (the fact that the declarer found a way to lose 2 tricks is not relevent). The hands were:

 

[hv=d=w&v=e&w=sqjxxhxdak9xckt8x&e=shakqjxxxdxxca9xx]266|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

This was in an ACBL matchpoint pairs game on BBO. As you can see from the bidding and the result, the level of the competition in these games is, to put it charitably, uneven.

 

But that is not the point. I have the AK of spades and QJxx in opener's suit. I did not double (ignorning the lead directing implications of the double). Slam was cold.

 

The moral is you should not double a slam just because you think you have it beat. If you don't know you have it beat, it just doesn't make much sense. Besides, at most forms of scoring, the difference between beating a slam one undoubled trick and one doubled trick is usually nothing.

 

[by the way, can anyone figure out which 2 tricks declarer lost?]

[Fluffy]

you have to double to protect yourself, from what you said you could bid 6♣anytime you had AKQxx and nobody would double you because they don't know where their tricks are coming from, who cares if I was cold for 6♠? I cannot double.

[hotShot]

Obviously the opening hand has to be downgraded for several reasons, but there other things to think about.

 

Suppose you agreed to open 12HCP, then the average strength of a first seat pass is 8 HCP. If this is followed by a pass in 2nd seat, the average 2nd seat strength is 9.33 HCP.

 

This is what partner should assume for his decision in 3rd seat.

So if you hold this hand in 3rd seat, you should pass because your side will have 20 HCP on average and there is no need to take a risk.

 

If you get this hand in 4th seat, you can see that the average strength of your side is 21.33 HCP. At MP's you will only get a decent score, if you score better than 0. So you should open in 4th seat.

 

What about 1st seat?

Although the hand is worth less than 12 HCP, the HCP available to the other players is 28. This means on average your partner has 9.33 this means that your side has the majority of points. Your partner in 3rd seat will make his decision assuming that opps have 4 HCP more than they actually have. If you don't open there is a good chance that partner will not be able to act. There is a 2:1 chance that your partner does not hold the ♠Q so all of his HCP will be working well most of the time.

I think it won't matter much whether you open or not.

 

In 2nd seat you can assume that the 2 player left share 20 HCP. So on average your side will hold 22 HCP, so you should open, because you need to act.

 

So a clear opening in 2nd and 4th seat, a clear pass in 3rd seat and a "does not matter much" in 1st seat.

[kenrexford]

One does not double slam bids based on high card points when it is clear that the hand has freakish distribution.

 

Tricks beat slams - not high card points.

A-K combos look like tricks.

 

I'd say that one does double 6♦, and expects a wall of -1090's.

Just last night I held:

 

AKxx

Txx

QJxx

Jx

 

And heard the opponents bid to 6♥ in an uncontested auction:

 

1♦ - 4NT

5♥ - 6♥

 

Yes, that was the auction. I did not double. 6♥ was cold without much to the play (the fact that the declarer found a way to lose 2 tricks is not relevent). The hands were:

 

[hv=d=w&v=e&w=sqjxxhxdak9xckt8x&e=shakqjxxxdxxca9xx]266|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

This was in an ACBL matchpoint pairs game on BBO. As you can see from the bidding and the result, the level of the competition in these games is, to put it charitably, uneven.

 

But that is not the point. I have the AK of spades and QJxx in opener's suit. I did not double (ignorning the lead directing implications of the double). Slam was cold.

 

The moral is you should not double a slam just because you think you have it beat. If you don't know you have it beat, it just doesn't make much sense. Besides, at most forms of scoring, the difference between beating a slam one undoubled trick and one doubled trick is usually nothing.

 

[by the way, can anyone figure out which 2 tricks declarer lost?]

What?!?

 

I believe there to be a wild difference between these two situations.

 

In the posted situation, partner opened (albeit debatable obviously), but, more importantly, the next call was a leap to 6♦, a wild-ass gamble that paid.

 

In your example, partner has apparently passed throughout. Hence, he is likely to have 0 HCP's, as opposed to even 11 in the form of all Queens and Jacks. Plus, the opponents have both bid in a strong sequence that suggests that they have stuff. The leaping suggests a likely void, for that matter.

 

You might as well say that bidding 4♠ with a thirteen-count and four spades is a bad idea, despite partner opening 1♠, because the other day you bid 4♠ with the exact same hand, a disaster, after the opponent opened 1♠.

[benlessard]

Red i will pass except in 4th seat.

white i will always open.

 

playing weak nt & white = easy opening

 

 

Im not fond of LOB but white ill always open this 1. If partner has long S he wont be disappointed with my hand if hes is short in S i have 2 quick trick. The only problem is when he is medium S length and opps are void or stiff S.

 

 

Playing weak Nt(12-14) and being white Its doesnt make anysense to pass this hand imho.

 

In 4th seat its an opening if you play some method for INV hands that will enable you to stop at the 2 level. Otherwise its dangerous because partner will often put you in 2Nt or at the 3 level.

[ArtK78]

What?!?

 

I believe there to be a wild difference between these two situations.

 

In the posted situation, partner opened (albeit debatable obviously), but, more importantly, the next call was a leap to 6♦, a wild-ass gamble that paid.

 

In your example, partner has apparently passed throughout.  Hence, he is likely to have 0 HCP's, as opposed to even 11 in the form of all Queens and Jacks.  Plus, the opponents have both bid in a strong sequence that suggests that they have stuff.  The leaping suggests a likely void, for that matter.

 

You might as well say that bidding 4♠ with a thirteen-count and four spades is a bad idea, despite partner opening 1♠, because the other day you bid 4♠ with the exact same hand, a disaster, after the opponent opened 1♠.

Actually, Ken, I don't think the two situations are all that different.

 

Why do you think that you can beat a slam bid by the opponents in a leap to 6 just because partner opened in third seat and you hold an AK in a side suit? Quite frankly, the bidder could have 6 made in his own hand. In this particular case, he did not, but the contract was cold nonetheless.

 

Without changing one card in either first seat's hand (the hand that passed and then doubled 6♦) or third seat opener's hand, the hand that leapt to 6♦ could have held:

 

---

---

AKT9xxxxx

AKQT

 

Quite frankly, this hand looks a lot more like a leap to 6♦ than the actual hand.

 

How does the double look now? Making with an overtrick.

 

By the way, in the hand that I played in the ACBL tourney on BBO, the use of the 4NT bid strongly indiciates that the bidder does NOT have a void. Of course, inexperienced players have been known to bid Blackwood with voids, and this is just another example.