In a heart beat

[keylime]

Phil,

 

Let me be devil's advocate here.

 

What is double of 4♥ here in this context? I would think that it should show cooperative values but not necessarily deny spade length. I agree with the initial double - it doesn't bypass your potentially last safe harbor of 4♠, but now we're in the soup. Additionally, pard may have as many as 4 hearts (likely 2-3, but still, this is something to consider in terms of final contract) and that means you'll need to consider carefully how to make a probe.

 

What's 4NT here....under duress? There is merit that if you had another place (or in this case three total) to play that 5NT could convey this message, but because of the lack of room you're endplayed into one of 3 forcing calls - 4NT, 5♥, and 5NT:

 

4NT, probably RKCB in spades - doesn't help us, we're void in hearts.

 

5H - likes spades, asking for the quality of their 4♠ call. Great if pard's on some spades, horrible if on 4-2-x-x and/or a single suited weak hand in spades

 

5NT - potentially the bigger gainer, and likewise, the biggest loser. It gains when any three card minor holding is out there, and also gets us to grand if pard provides a couple of tickets. It loses when pard thinks it's a G/S try in spades and you lose context, and also if pard doesn't equate the multiple places to play concept.

 

With experienced partnerships, 5NT being pick-a-slam makes sense IF you have both minors. What about being 3-0-6-4 or similar - it almost forces a mandatory 6♣ bid which may be the wrong fit! That's one of the reasons I'm not a fan of 5NT here - it muddies the waters and caters to exactly one hand type that would double, the 5530 handtype. I'd rather play 5NT as G/S try and 4NT as my general probe for the best contract, and leave 5H as specifically inquiring about pard's hand knowing that I can bid a minor in passing with the reasonable expectation pard should reason that I am offering another place to play (and likewise, pard counterproposing).

 

In pickup p'ships, this becomes nearly an impossible problem to solve correctly. I still don't think that 4♠ is necessarily a free bid - I would expect pard to double with values and no direction. Then again, I view this as "weak must speak" situation, especially at IMP scoring.

[jdonn]

With experienced partnerships, 5NT being pick-a-slam makes sense IF you have both minors. What about being 3-0-6-4 or similar - it almost forces a mandatory 6♣ bid which may be the wrong fit! That's one of the reasons I'm not a fan of 5NT here - it muddies the waters and caters to exactly one hand type that would double, the 5530 handtype.

With 3064 I would bid 5NT then pull 6♣ to 6♦. It won't get us to clubs when it's right, but it gets us to diamonds when that's better than spades. 5NT doesn't just have to cater to one shape.

 

I still can't believe pass. You could have about 16 tricks claimed in spades at trick 1. The hand partner holds on which slam is a spot card from being good (and is good in the other suit) is the barest of bare (sub)minimums! Why is this what we are catering to!

[pclayton]

Phil,

 

What is double of 4♥ here in this context? I would think that it should show cooperative values but not necessarily deny spade length.

 

Double denies spade length. Rather obvious.

 

Additionally, pard may have as many as 4 hearts (likely 2-3, but still, this is something to consider in terms of final contract) and that means you'll need to consider carefully how to make a probe.

 

This is why I don't insist on spades.

 

What's 4NT here....under duress?

 

4N isn't relevant. On another hand we can argue whether or not its some 'flexible' hand or Key Card. I vote the latter.

 

5H - likes spades, asking for the quality of their 4♠ call. Great if pard's on some spades, horrible if on 4-2-x-x and/or a single suited weak hand in spades

 

Agree. It also signals a heart void, otherwise why not key card? 5♥ effectively becomes a GSF of sorts here. It sets spades as trump.

 

5NT - potentially the bigger gainer, and likewise, the biggest loser. It gains when any three card minor holding is out there, and also gets us to grand if pard provides a couple of tickets. It loses when pard thinks it's a G/S try in spades and you lose context, and also if pard doesn't equate the multiple places to play concept.

 

Dwayne, you need to play in stronger games. It isn't GSF for spades. 5N is unequivocally pick-a-slam.

 

With experienced partnerships, 5NT being pick-a-slam makes sense IF you have both minors. What about being 3-0-6-4 or similar - it almost forces a mandatory 6♣ bid which may be the wrong fit!

 

See Josh's quote above. 5N isn't relegated to 5-5's. 6-4's can pull 6♣ to 6♦.

 

I still don't think that 4♠ is necessarily a free bid - I would expect pard to double with values and no direction. Then again, I view this as "weak must speak" situation, especially at IMP scoring.

 

Honestly, I don't know where you get these 'humpty-dumpty' ideas Dwayne. In my world, passing still shows a bad hand and bidding shows a good hand.

[keylime]

Phil,

 

I strongly take exception to the notion that I don't play strong games or that I have a humpty-dumpty idea over something that is quite relevant. C'mon Phil, that was rather cheapish and unlike you.

 

The entire universe doesn't play pick-a-slam in this situation, so why should it be readily dismissed here, especially when there's a 4 level raise of a preempt and you're trying to figure out the best contract ? (For the record, Larry and I have no agreement here, so this is a very thought provoking problem). I am sure there's enough "good players" out there that would think that 5NT here is G/S try with a huge hand to warrant consideration - a little slack is appreciated here towards the responder that probably doesn't have what I need for slam try. I want my pard to feel that they can bid on more hands where I'm giving them a Q or K, and...what about adverse breaks? Certainly, trumps are not going to be 3-2/3-1 more often than not - and with a 2nd suit in the picture, a cross-ruff is lurking to sink 6♠. So, if I mandate pard passing on any five bagger and I double back in (or bid 4NT), that doesn't work out when pard has a few hearts with their spades (it's almost the case where you want pard to NOT have spades to runout via 4NT). My argument is not just from the practiced p'ships, but with casual ones -> and I'd expect casual ones be more conservative in this situation and just strive for game (or double or 4NT takeout).

 

In my youthful days pass was out of the question, so chalk my conservatism and discipline to old age.

[pclayton]

Sorry Dwayne, my comments were a little OTT.

 

I'm just trying to get you to distinguish between what looks good on a blog and what is right at the table. You usually have some really good ideas about bidding, but I'm amazed you and the other passers can't see what is in front of your collective noses.

 

By the way, I and other bidders are still waiting for a hand, any hand, that demonstrates that passing is the right call.

 

I think that its more likely that we have a grand.

[keylime]

Phil,

 

Apology accepted. I understand the vein of what you're angling towards here; we're both passionate people.

 

Maybe I'm a little gunshy about blasting to slam on these hands due to bringing back -50's versus +420/+450 - these 5-5 hands haunt me admittedly from time to time.

 

The more I think about it, the more I might elect 4NT first over double, just because it's more indicative about my hand versus a double and awkward rebid. Yes I have a rock, but I'm at equal colors (at favorable, I confess I'm going). I wish I could bid 4♥ immediately and then correct if pard made some noise, but that's rather counterintuitive. Additionally, I can handle any combination except 6-3-2-2.

 

What wouldn't responder bid but 4♠ on let's say on 9xxxx Axx Jxx xx at equal at IMPs? The preempting side doesn't have to have A or K of hearts do they?

[pclayton]

What wouldn't responder bid but 4♠ on let's say on 9xxxx Axx Jxx xx at equal at IMPs? The preempting side doesn't have to have A or K of hearts do they?

I admit I would pay off to this (effective) zero count.

[keylime]

Phil,

 

I forgot to include the hand 9xxxxx Kx KJx xx too (and if 5-3-3-2 with same honors).