Abuse of 4NT

[Tcyk]

Yesterday picked up a nice hand while playing in a tournament, board 1. My approximate hand was:

♠Q 10 ♥A K Q X X X ♦K x ♣x x x

I opened 1H and the auction proceeded -1S, 2H-4NT, 5S (2 key cards and the queen of hearts)-7NT. You guessed it. The opening lead was a spade, won by my LHO's Ace. My lovely partner asked what kind of a bid was 5S and logged off. I didn't even get to tell them that I was showing 2 key cards plus the queen (as per the information on their card). You also guessed it, my partner had 4 spades and a stiff heart. I don't know about others, but I don't bid 4NT unless there is an agreed trump suit or it is a quantitative raise of NT. It really made me angry that this so-called expert was mad at me for my "crazy" bid and left. They will probably never know of their error and will continue to think that I am some kind of an idiot.

 

I can't count the number of times that I have opened 1 or 2NT and had a partner respond 4NT which I dutifully passed with a minimum hand. The other day, my partner had 4 hearts to match my own 4-card suit and a heart slam would have been easy. No, they couldn't bid Stayman first, they jump right to 4NT and when I pass they think I am an idiot for not showing my aces. Doesn't anyone know what a quantitative raise is or that you can bid again after using Stayman?

 

If I were playing with a regular partner, we would have discussed these things and I would have known the meaning of their bid. With pickup partners, I must make standard answers to their bids. If their card says RKC3041, I can hardly assume that 4NT is asking for aces and not key cards. What really makes me angry is that these problems seem to usually occur with partners that rate themselves as expert or advanced. If you don't know how to use 4NT you can hardly be an expert or advanced player.

[keylime]

I definitely feel for you here. Shake it off and realize it's not your fault.

 

I would play straight Blackwood until pard prompts you otherwise. I do this in indys and it is amazing how many think RKCB is part of SAYC.

 

For the record, I rarely use 4NT anymore for ace-asking - I use other tools to prevent this major oops from happening.

[mikeh]

You have been the victim (numerous times, I infer) of the ratings-inflation that inevitably accompanies any self-rating method. Not that I am at all in favour of any other rating method that i have ever seen discussed (let alone the notorious Lehmans of OKB).

 

Any bad player can rate himself or herself as expert, and you will even find some allegedly WC players who know almost nothing about the game. All you can do is to try to note (perhaps as 'friends') those players whose understanding of the game is roughly equivalent with yours and try, gradually, to limit the number of random 'experts' with whom you play. I don't play on BBO anymore, but when I did, if I didn't recognize an opp(or partner) I usually assumed they were bad unless they rated themselves as private or had a star.... strangely, 'private' seems to be a better sign of competency than does 'expert' or even (if you don't recognize the name) 'WC'.

 

You know that your understanding of the 5♠ response, in the 1st auction you gave, was 'correct'... just make sure you don't play with that particular idiot again :P

 

As for the larger issues relating to 4N, this really isn't the place to discuss all of the possible treatments, and I suspect that you were really just looking to vent and to obtain some validation.... not that those are not legitimate motives :)

[helene_t]

You're right, if you play rkcb there is always an agreed suit when asking keycards, in this case it was hearts. Mikeh's advice is good.

 

Why don't you message your "expert" partner to read this thread.

[Tcyk]

Last night, I got in a friendly argument about Blackwood with someone on BBO. I had finished play in a tornament and was watching some of the hands still being played. On the final board, there were several pairs that had an auction that went something like:

1C (P) 1H (P)

1S (P) 4N (P)

5H (P) 6N All Pass

Invariably, the result was down two.

 

I commented that I didn't know why the opener didn't pass 4N since they had a minimum hand and 4N was obviously quantitative. That's when the argument started. I was told that 4N was Blackwood and that quantitative 4N only occurs over NT. As a result of our discussion, I searched the Web and found sites that agreed with both viewpoints.

 

I was taught that 4N (ace asking bids in general except for Gerber) is only used when there is an agreed upon suit. Otherwise, 4N is quantitative. Other uses of 4N are:

1. Unusual no trump for some 2-suited hands,

2. D. I. (Declarer Interrogative) which occurs in cue-bidding sequences and almost always has an agreed trump suit.

3. Weiss (takeout of a 4S opening bid).

4. A final disparate stopping place when we can't agree on a major-suit fit.

 

In my opinion, the jump to 4N in the auction given above just takes up too much bidding room unless it is purely quantitative.

 

BTW, the auction at my table went:

1C (P) 2N (P)

3N All Pass

When asked the meaning of 2N I was told that it showed 12+ points. What I really wanted to know if it denied a 4-card major.

 

Tcyk - an intermediate forever.

[Guest Jlall]

I would take 4N as keycard for spades. Quantitative can/should just start lower. There would never be a need to bid 4N instead of 2D, and openers hand is very much unknown.

[matmat]

sometimes i think the world would have been a better place had Mr Easley Blackwood and Mr. Roman Keycard not come up with their conventions.

 

until further notice.

4NT is aceasking, 4♣ is aceasking.

[bhall]

Regarding RKCB: The agreement that Justin cited is a common one: last bid suit. With my partners, it is RKCB only after trump agreement or a suit has been jump bid, showing length and strength. I am still waiting for Justin's partner to use RKCB directly over a cue bid. :)

 

1♣-(1♥)-1♠-(2♥)

3♥-(P)-4N? (Don't forget to show the ♥Q, partner)

 

Regarding quantitative 4N: A practical rule that some of us play is that, when trump is not agreed and 3N would have been an offer to play there, then 4N is a notrump invitation. As in the example above.

[han]

I like keycards. I know it's not cool but I like it a lot.

[blackshoe]

Undiscussed, I agree with Justin.

 

@tcyk: The auction goes 1♠-4NT (or 1 of any suit, for that matter). I learned this (as far as I knew then, RCKB didn't exist) as simple Blackwood. I don't see how it could be construed as "quantitative". IME, that word is shorthand for "quantitative raise", a term usually used with respect to a NT bid. There are, I think, auctions where it would make sense to treat 4NT as suggesting 6NT, even absent a previous NT bid, but this isn't one of them.

[dicklont]

I would take 4N as keycard for spades. Quantitative can/should just start lower. There would never be a need to bid 4N instead of 2D, and openers hand is very much unknown.

I would take 4N as quantitative. You can use the fourth suit and then show spade support so there is no need to go jumping around.

This also leaves room for controlbidding.

[Codo]

I would take 4N as quantitative. You can use the fourth suit and then show spade support so there is no need to go jumping around.

This also leaves room for controlbidding.

You can take 4 NT for lunch, or for quantitative.

 

However when you sit down in the MBC opposite a stranger, the chances are about 90 % that your partner takes 4 NT as RCKB for the last suit.

[NickToll]

... My lovely partner asked what kind of a bid was 5S and logged off...

This is the most unpleasant part of the whole thing. Is it so hard to accept that misunderstandings can always occur in pickup partnerships?

 

Anyway, I use to play 4NT RKCB only when a suit has been agreed upon: that is, bid and raised, not just implied. When this is not the case, 4NT is Roman Blackwood, counting only Aces: 0-3, 1-4, 2, 2 plus the King of the first bid suit. Far from perfect but sensible, especially when partner preempts and you have a very good hand with a suit of your own.

[gwnn]

I would take 4N as quantitative. You can use the fourth suit and then show spade support so there is no need to go jumping around.

This also leaves room for controlbidding.

You can take 4 NT for lunch, or for quantitative.

 

However when you sit down in the MBC opposite a stranger, the chances are about 93 % that your partner takes 4 NT as 04-1-2-3 blackwood.

corrected your post.

 

btw am I the only one whom this thread reminded of http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=23286 ?

[barmar]

If you sit down with a random in the MBC, you're probably playing SAYC (or whatever he understands SAYC to be -- most players are not fully versed in the system, but they claim to play it anyway). SAYC does NOT include 4th suit forcing to game; it mentions that occasionally it will be necessary to use this when no other forcing bid is available, but it's ordinarily assumed to be natural and forcing for one round. In this case, you can't bid the 4th suit and later raise to show a hand with slam interest. So the only way to explore for slam in opener's second suit is to jump straight to Blackwood.

[ArcLight]

Ever notice how many adv/expert pick up pards have "RKC" in their profile.

Then you have to ask 0314 or 1430?

In general I guess 0314 might be more prevenlent? 55%-45%? But why guess?

[helene_t]

The only major benefit of this convention is that when you use it and bid a slam with two aces missing, opps will not imagine that they have two aces to cash since we did check for them, and so they may not cash in time. Has happened several times (well, 3 times I can recall). Last time was yesterday, playing for Lancaster against Gazette (Blackpool), when we had a 13-IMP swing due to such an RKC misunderstanding. We won the match by 12 IMPs.

[PassedOut]

I would play straight Blackwood until pard prompts you otherwise.

Agree 100%. And I refuse to play RKCB unless I can tell partner knows what he or she is doing.

[brianshark]

It doesn't matter what's written on their profile... unless you agree to play keycard, you should probably just assume standard blackwood.

 

I tend to just play with friends online. I don't play too much random teams matches lately, but a year or so ago when I played more of them, I found the standard much better than you'd get in a typical tournament of MBC. I don't know if that holds true still.

[Tcyk]

I really didn't intend to get into a discussion of methods of showing aces. A half century ago, I liked to play 4130CRM; like with two aces you can't figure out which two they are. Now days you have checkback Redwood, Voidwood, etc, etc. I can't count the number of times, when playing in an indy or with a new partner, 4NT has come out of the blue and I don't know what to do. Playing keycard, I have to know what suit is going to be trumps in order to answer the question. I guess the answer is to use the last suit bid if unsure (excluding cue bids of the opponents suit :)).

 

Another no trump bid that can be confusng is 3NT after a suit fit has been found. Fred is creditted with using the bid to ask partner to cue bid but there are times when it is to play or used for some other purpose.

1D - 1H -

2H - 3N

Probably indicated responder's shape is 3433

1H - 3X (limit raise) -

3N

Is a Fred bid, asking partner to cue bid

1S - 3N

Probably is to play but can be used to show a minimum splinter in an undisclosed suit. Better get that one straight with your partner.

[matmat]

actually, my pet peeve online is when the person bidding an aceask announces that it is an aceask. I have no problem with the responder asking which variant when they recognize 4n or 4c as an aceask, but to announce it somehow seems wrong, *ESPECIALLY* when in context most decent people would take the bid as natural

[barmar]

Ever notice how many adv/expert pick up pards have "RKC" in their profile.

Then you have to ask 0314 or 1430?

In general I guess 0314 might be more prevenlent? 55%-45%? But why guess?

My understanding is that standard RKCB is 0314, 1430 is a common variant that requires explicit agreement.