3N Namyats

[SoTired]

It is an intentional violation of the rules, and should attract a sanction, but it is not the same as what we normally think of when we think of cheating

 

haha I cant believe you wrote that

i agree, too. intentional violation of the rules, sneaky getting a misled director to agree,

 

sure, not as severe as hand signals, but still.....

 

similar to a friend who said, "I did not steal your car, I just borrowed it without your permission."

[rbforster]

Checking with a director, even one of Henry's standing, is no excuse, altho it may feel like one...

 

So playing the illegal method is unfair to those of us who, equally irritated and frustrated by the ACBL's attitude towards thinking, abide by the rules.

 

And it is unfair to Phil's opponents... unless that is part of the conditions of contest.

All very reasonable in theory. Of course asking a "senior" director for your area is probably the best way to determine what will be allowed in practice at that event (even if that's not what the letter of the national law says). And we all know that waiting for conventions to be approved at that national level is about like waiting for chimps to get the right to vote so if the locals have taken a broader view perhaps we shouldn't chastise them for being a little ahead of Memphis.

 

3.  This is a National Level event.  This isn't a case where a local district can impose its own regulations.  Even though the event is taking place in California, you still don't don't get play Suction as a defense over a NT opening.

Oh and Suction is approved in these events, by the way.

This just illustrates the problem. The rules on the books say one thing (which Richard cites), but as a matter of practice everyone ignores this in CA and allows Suction defenses to NT. Is this "fair"? Well, to the extent that everyone knows that all NT defenses are ok and hence are forewarned (if not prepared) for Suction over their NT, the only people who are wronged are those didn't get the message and mistakenly read the national rules instead of the local ones (whether they be those unprepared to allowed Suction defenses, or those who played an inferior defense in place of Suction). I understand that having the localities allow inconsistently advertised conventions causes some problems, but that really seems like the only way forward for innovation so put me in the locals-first camp.

 

FWIW, I've heard that at least a few West Coast experts play 3N Namytas nominally under the "solid suit" provision which of course they don't always have when they "occasionally stretch" for their 3N bid. My sources tell me they "get away with it" as most non-junior experts do when the directors respect them professionally. Once the favored experts adopt their pet conventions and start widely (if illegally) playing them, then the rest of us can tell the directors that we're playing the same thing as Superflight Pro X does and so it must be ok. And like NT defenses, eventually it is pretty much ok.

[blackshoe]

A sponsoring organization can make whatever regulations it likes, provided they don't conflict with the laws. See Law 80F. However that organization also has an obligation to publish those regulations. IMO, if a district wishes to make suction legal in an otherwise GCC event, they must make sure that prospective players are aware of that before they pay their entry fees.

 

From the Mid-Chart:

This chart (or any part) may apply to any sectionally or regionally rated event or tournament at sponsor's option provided that this has been included in tournament advertising. (The requirement for advertising does not extend to use in Flt. A or high brackets of KOs.)

 

If a District or Unit wants to make one or more Mid-Chart conventions legal at their otherwise GCC events, they can do so - provided they publish that fact ahead of time.

 

BTW, the SuperChart says

This chart (or any part) may be used at a sectionally or regionally rated event or tournament at sponsor’s option in any event with 12-board or longer segments provided this has been included in tournament advertising.

[mikeh]

It is an intentional violation of the rules, and should attract a sanction, but it is not the same as what we normally think of when we think of cheating

 

haha I cant believe you wrote that

i agree, too. intentional violation of the rules, sneaky getting a misled director to agree,

 

sure, not as severe as hand signals, but still.....

 

similar to a friend who said, "I did not steal your car, I just borrowed it without your permission."

You guys are missing the point :P

 

If I park at a meter and don't put money in, I am breaking the rules, and may be doing so intentionally. But this is a mickey-mouse offence, punishable by a tiny fine. If I rob a bank, shooting a teller, this is a felony and the punishment for being caught is severe.

 

Now, both could be described as a 'crime' but no rational person would say they are morally equivalent...would they? And I think most people, when asked to consider examples of criminal conduct would not think of a parking offence :)

 

So what Phil and Matt did may have been the bridge equivalent of not putting money in the meter (how close the analogy is depends on your view of traffic regulation and/or the ACBL GCC restrictions) while 'cheating' as Sion did, as Katz and Cohen were suspected of doing, etc, is the bridge equivalent of armed robbery, with shooting of a teller. Ask any experienced bridge player to describe examples of cheating he has heard about, and he'll tell you about rearranging the pencils to suggest specific suits, or sniffing and coughing, or head-bobbing to scoop opps' cards and so on, but surely not many would come up with what Phil and Matt did as exemplars of what 'cheating' means.

[jtfanclub]

So what Phil and Matt did may have been the bridge equivalent of not putting money in the meter

Actually, it's equivalent to parking at a meter on a Sunday, knowing that you still need to put money in it. You then ask the cop patrolling the area if the meter needs to be paid on Sundays (even though you know the answer is yes) and when he says "no" not putting money in. Later, a different cop gives you a ticket.

 

To which I say...pay the darn ticket. But it's not anything serious.

[blackshoe]

If I rob a bank, shooting a teller, this is a felony...

Actually, it's at least two felonies. Probably more.

[hrothgar]

Out of curiousity, whatever happened with the NAMYATS 3N?

 

1. Did you continue to use the methods in San Francisco?

2. Did you every check with Rick Beye about the legality of the methods?

3. Have you checked with Memphis to see whether this is legal at the Midchart level? (I think that AWM raised some valid points)

4. Have you submitted your homebrew defense for approval?

[pclayton]

As an update, I sent this to C and C on January 11.

 

Nothing yet, although its only been 3 weeks.