How to find the best game?

[Gerben42]

In a live team 7-board Swiss match against expert opponents you get the following pedestrian hand:

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sa8653hk4dk6c8732]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Partner: 1♦ (4+♦ unbalanced, at least a Queen more than a SAYC minumum hand)

RHO: 3♥

 

Now what and why?

[whereagles]

hum... well, there's a good chance pard has only 2 spades, so if I bid 3♠, he'll be stuck for a bid without a heart stop.

 

I'll just take that pressure off him. 3NT.

[Halo]

Double.

 

Not a brilliant spade suit. Don't care if he passes.

[mike777]

Double

 

As usual with a tough bidding problem....double or cuebid. :)

[P_Marlowe]

X

 

You search for a spade fit, and may find a

club fit, and you may be able to play 3Hx,

the only downside is, that you may miss

3NT and may miss a 5-3 fit in spade.

But treating this 5 card suit as a 4 carder is

not the worst crime.

 

The alternative, would be 3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[inquiry]

Looks like a fairly normal negative double to me.

[Gerben42]

41% for 3♠ now but none of the voters commented it. Don't be shy!

[Codo]

There is a borderline between double and 3 Spade.

All would double with 4 Spades and 5 Clubs.

Few would double with 5 or even 6 good spades and 4 Clubs.

 

So the borderline is somewhere in the range of this hand.

 

Major rules, so I am with the 41 % and bid 3 Spade.

3 NT with a singelton stopper can work, but I won´t like it.

Double can work obviously too, but I doubt that we will find 4 Spade opposite Kxx,xx, AKxxx, Axx. (f this is in your NT range, make it KQx, xxx, AKxxxx,x)

[catch22]

Partner is unbalanced and 3S gets us to 4S when partner has 3 or 4 spades. 3NT when partner is 1-3 in the majors with a stop and the correct minor when partner is 2-1 in the majors. So 3S would be my choice

 

3NT doesn't feel right with single stop and the problem with double is that partner will bid 4C or 4D unless he has 4 spades and we may then have lost the spade suit.

 

Couple of questions back to the forum.

 

What is 4S after 1D-(3H)-X-(P)-4m-(P)-4S.

 

How far is 3S forcing? Can you pass 4m?

[Edmunte1]

Double, keeping all roads opened. 3NT with Hx is too commital, and i don't like 3♠ with such bad spades and minimum values for a forcing bid

[brianshark]

I have 5 spades and I have a GF hand. I will bid 3♠. Strength schmedt. We'd open this suit 1♠ easily enough. What's the difference?

 

I think the doublers are over-thinking the hand and 3NT is an unnecessary punt.

[Fluffy]

didn't realise abou the strong opening, still suit is awful for 3♠, but the values are maybe enough. Double.

[mikeh]

It is often useful to do an analysis of competing choices, and to then choose the least worst.

 

3N: could be right, but it is impossible to get to 4♠, which is likely the better game if partner has 3 or 4 spades (even if he has long hearts, LHO will probably be ruffing with a natural trump trick). 3N is extremely committal

 

double: right if partner has 4 spades. It may work if partner has 3 spades, depending on his propensity to bid 3♠ with that length. And it will work when partner can bid 3N. It will probably be fine if he passes as well, but my heart holding makes that unlikely. It will almost certainly be bad if he bids 4m: what am I bidding over that?

 

3♠: the hand is strong enough, given that my hcp are in Aces and Kings, the heart K looks as if is it well positioned, and partner has shown a good hand by system. So 3♠ is accurate as to strength, accurate as to suit length, and misleading, if at all, by reference to suit quality. It will get us to 3N when partner has a stopper and fewer than 3♠s... and I don't want to be in 3N when he lacks a stopper (even tho it might work: Kx xx AQJxxx Axx as an example). It still creates a problem if he bids 4m.. but I will have a higher degree of confidence than if I had doubled and heard him bid 4m: if he were 3=2=4=4, over the double he might bid 4♣ especially if his spades were weak... whereas over 3♠, he'd always raise.

 

On balance, I think that 3♠ is a more accurate description of my hand AND leads to simpler auctions, while double is a fairly close 2nd and 3N (which might win all the marbles on some hands) is a distant 3rd.

[han]

What does double followed by 4S over 4m show? The only thing I can come up with is a gameforcing hand with 5 poor spades. I'm fairly confident that partner would read it as such.

 

Therefore, I don't understand mikeh's comment that double leaves us less well-placed over a possible 4m than 3S does, on the contrary. So I'll go with double, 3S being a close 2nd and 3NT a distant third.

 

I think that the main different between double and 3S is that 3S will sometimes get us to 4S when it is wrong (partner holding Hx in spades and Axx in hearts for example) while double will sometimes get us to 3NT when 4S is better (partner holding a heart stopper but also 3 or 4 spades). I think the latter is less likely (although 3NT could be silly if partner is 3361 for example).

[mikeh]

What does double followed by 4S over 4m show? The only thing I can come up with is a gameforcing hand with 5 poor spades. I'm fairly confident that partner would read it as such.

 

Therefore, I don't understand mikeh's comment that double leaves us less well-placed over a possible 4m than 3S does, on the contrary. So I'll go with double, 3S being a close 2nd and 3NT a distant third.

 

I think that the main different between double and 3S is that 3S will sometimes get us to 4S when it is wrong (partner holding Hx in spades and Axx in hearts for example) while double will sometimes get us to 3NT when 4S is better (partner holding a heart stopper but also 3 or 4 spades). I think the latter is less likely (although 3NT could be silly if partner is 3361 for example).

I am more than fairly confident that double followed by 4♠ does NOT show a gf hand with 5 poor spades. To me, that sequence shows a long spade suit (at least 6 times, and often 7) with a hand too weak to bid 3♠, natural, unlimited and absolutely forcing to game.

 

Yes, I know that by doubling and bidding 4♠ we are committing to game, but the difference is that double then 4♠ shows playing strength, based on length in spades, while bidding 3♠ shows power and 5+ spades.

[Halo]

Very interesting thread.

 

I agree with Hannie. In a competitive auction double and 4S after 4m is exactly this hand. Doesn't make double right, but I'll stick with it.

[mikeh]

Very interesting thread.

 

I agree with Hannie. In a competitive auction double and 4S after 4m is exactly this hand. Doesn't make double right, but I'll stick with it.

Ok, I'll bite.

 

You hold AQJ10xx xx xx Qxx: your call over 3♥?

 

Then partner bids 4♦... are you really done here? Are you now barred from bidding 4♠?

 

Or do you jump to 4♠ over 3♥?

 

Or do you pass and pray partner (who is short(ish) in spades) reopens?

 

Or do you show a gf hand... which is fine when partner doesn't take you seriously, but may be problematic when partner plays you for values you don't have. If you think that the example hand is worth a gf, then make it slightly weaker...you get the point, I hope.

 

As a matter of frequency, non gf hands with long spades will be more common than gf hands with specifically 5 bad spades, so which hand type do you want to include in your methods?

[Halo]

Very interesting thread.

 

I agree with Hannie.  In a competitive auction double and 4S after 4m is exactly this hand.  Doesn't make double right, but I'll stick with it.

Ok, I'll bite.

 

You hold AQJ10xx xx xx Qxx: your call over 3♥?

For me if I am too weak to bid spades on your hand (or weaker for me) then I don't double.

[brianshark]

What's wrong with the immediate jump to 4♠ after 3♥? Is there any response to the negative dbl that partner can make that won't lead to us bidding 4♠ on the above hand? It seems we want to play in 4♠ no matter what partner has, whether he has support or not, whether he's min or not. Aren't these hands generally shown by jumping un-economically and unilaterally to game?

 

Having said that, I'm still not sure what 4♠ followed by a double would mean. Perhaps some slam try with long spades?

[ASkolnick]

How can double followed by 4S be a slam try in spades?

 

With any forcing hand and spades, you have 1 simple call:

 

3S, why, because its forcing? If you want to make a slam try, bid some more after this.

 

1D-3H-x-4m-4S It can't be a terrible hand, why, because you made a negative double forcing partner to bid at the 3+ level.

 

Therefore, the only possible meaning it could mean is a bad suit (usually 6, maybe 5 spades if needs partner to bid 3N).

 

The problem MikeH poses in his follow up, is entirely different the original

[CSGibson]

You hold AQJ10xx xx xx Qxx: your call over 3♥?

 

Then partner bids 4♦... are you really done here? Are you now barred from bidding 4♠?

 

Or do you jump to 4♠ over 3♥?

 

Or do you pass and pray partner (who is short(ish) in spades) reopens?

 

I don't know what's standard here, but here's what makes sense to me. If 3 spades is game forcing, than 4 spades should be this weaker hand that doesn't have defense for 3 hearts doubled. After all, the double-then-bid spades with a weak hand argument is basically forcing to 4 spades anyway, with the off chance that you get to defend 3 hearts doubled when you have an 8 or nine card spade fit. Unless, of course, you are planning to pass if partner actually removes to 3 spades.

 

Double should show 4 spades or the bad-spade-suit game force, in my opinion. Either way, you'll be happier to defend than when you hold the shapely hand given above. Again, that may not be standard and I may not be thinking of all the cool things that you'd prefer 4 spades to be. Oh well.

[P_Marlowe]

What's wrong with the immediate jump to 4♠ after 3♥? Is there any response to the negative dbl that partner can make that won't lead to us bidding 4♠ on the above hand? It seems we want to play in 4♠ no matter what partner has, whether he has support or not, whether he's min or not. Aren't these hands generally shown by jumping un-economically and unilaterally to game?

 

Having said that, I'm still not sure what 4♠ followed by a double would mean. Perhaps some slam try with long spades?

I guess it depends on methods, but at least for some partnerships,

a jump to 4S after 3H is a fit jump, showing diamonds and spades.

 

If you play this, you have to go via double to show a power house

with spades.

 

The difference between bidding 3S (GF) followed by 4S, and bidding

4S after a double is, that there are hands in the inv. range, which

you need to treat as GF, but you need to ensure, that partner wont

get exited.

You need to have a way to tell partner, that you made the without

being presssurred to find a bid.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[benlessard]

Most type of hands that you want to handle are

 

1-♠ & Nt = spades but Nt could easily be best spot both in slammish and in non-slammish form.

 

2-♠ & good fit with partner = spades are possible but you also want to raise partner both in slammish and in non-slammish form.

 

3-Nt & /good fit with partner = where 3Nt or raising partner might be correct. both in slammish and in non-slammish form.

 

4-Spades & slammish = your going to endup in S but how high ?

 

5-Spades not slammish = you want to play 4S

 

 

with 1 & 3 starting by a neg X is best. Partner with a stopper will bid Nt with some length will pass and otherwise you will play in suit.

 

 

 

for 2,4,5

 

If you X and pard respond 4m its not-forcing therefore if partner got a max hand with both m or with super D he will need to jump to game. So gambling hands (5)with good & longs spades shouldnt make a neg X, NEVER (+ the fact that partner can pass your double). With these hands you need to either bid 3S followed by 4S or a direct 4S.

 

So whats the possible use of a direct 4S.

 

1----S+D fit

2----long spades slammish

3----long spades to play (gambling to 4s)

 

If you decide that a jump to 4S show a slammish hands then with AJTxxxxx and nothing else you need to bid 3S followed by 4S. Partner need to understand that its to play. You also need to turn off forcing passes. Also with super slammish you cant bid 4S. This is annoying.

 

If you decide to play that 4S is S + fit. Then with slammish hands with S you need to bid 3S followed by a cuebid (otherwise 3S followed by 4S is gambling) this is akward. You might have to make a false H cuebid wich is just as bad.

 

So the only thing remaining for a direct 4S is that the gambling type of 4S.

 

So 3S followed by 4S become a bit slammsih. 3S followed by a a new suit is slammish or show fit.

 

So all S+Fit or S & Nt, or long non solid need to start by a X.

 

 

 

 

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For me a direct 4S is tactical. Meaning im gambling into 4S partner should not try for slam without magic.

 

3S followed by 4S is showing self sufficient spades with a goodish hand and slam possibility.

 

X followed by 4S is doubt about strain.

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Some problems if you dont followed this method.

 

You X with a slammish hand with very long S and partner pass.

 

You have a gambling 4S. You bid 3S followed by 4H pass all the way to you you bid

4S opp bid back at 5H. Forcing pass or not ?

 

You bid have a powerhouse with long S. you bid 3S opps bid 4H back to you ?

 

would X show a powerhouse with no H control or shitty S and wanting to collect a +.

 

etc

[helene_t]

I voted 3♠ but Han's argument convinced me. Dbl is better. I agree that dbl followed by 4♠ shows this hand.

[jdonn]

I agree with Hannie too. I think the hands Mike shows just overbid 3♠ until they are just too weak and have to pass instead.