Tasered for Speeding in Utah

[Winstonm]

I think a more useful way to look at the Taser death statistics is to try to determine what the death toll might have been WITHOUT Tasers.  Let's say 500,000 people were tasered, and 10 of them died.  But it's possible that without tasers, 250,000 of them would have been shot with guns, and 100 of them would have died.  There would have been fewer shootings because police officers know that guns are very dangerous and should only be used in the most extreme circumstances; but that same reason is why there would be more overall deaths.  The use of Tasers reduces the death rate by 90% in my example.

 

You can't look at one statistic in a vacuum, you need the entire context.

 

And I think the reference to ill people may be pointing out that many of them might have died anyway.  If the officer didn't have a Taser, he would have had to subdue the subject with physical force; if he has a weak heart, a fight like this could cause an attack.  So it would be useful to compare the statistics of death by Taser on people with heart conditions with the statistics of death by wrestling to the ground on people with heart conditions.  If they're similar, then the Taser is no more dangerous, but it's probably more effective and safer for the officer.

It would depend entirely on the reason for the use of the Taser. If the Taser were only used as a defensive weapon in lieu of other types of combat, then what you say would be right.

 

However, if the Taser is used as a means of controlling a non-violent but non-cooperative offender, then the comparison would have to be against some lesser means of compliance such as pepper spray or mace.

[luke warm]

... how much simpler would it have been if the driver had just handed over the papers, signed the ticket and gone?

The goal isn't to be as simple as possible. It's to not kill anyone or ridiculously infringe on their rights as a human. By your argument the police officer could have shot him and it would be ok. You haven't found a single counter to the assertion that the punishment was excessive, even if some was deserved.

why should i counter an assertion? an assertion is simply an unproven opinion, it isn't something that deserves a debate... it's my opinion that the use of the taser in this case may have been excessive, but it's only my opinion... it's also my opinion that when a cop stops a person for any moving violation and asks for license, etc, there is no legitimate argument that can be made for not providing them... it's a lawful order and must be obeyed... bring it up in court and see if the judge has anything to say about it

I can't believe how people are letting this officer off. The driver was obviously just annoying and mad and a nuisance, big freaking deal.

you don't have to sign, ....

Then why did the officer make him leave the car!!!!!

i don't know why, but again the place to bring that up is in court

A more palpable example is the video of the polish guy killed at the Vancouver airport on the 14th October

i agree, now *that* should result in a winnable civil action at the very least and maybe even criminal charges

[Gerben42]

This police officer should be fired. This is ridiculous.

 

I mean the guy is asked to get out of his car, does so and gets an electric shock, which is basically just torture, abuse of power. I don't care if the police officer had a "bad day" but I would expect this kind of behaviour to not happen in any civilized country.

[jonottawa]

I don't care if the police officer had a "bad day" but I would expect this kind of behaviour to not happen in any civilized country.

<Insert joke about 'civilized country' and either Utah or USA here.>

 

I don't like cops (that's not my preferred term for them, but in the interest of diminishing controversy ...). Austin's got one of the dirtiest (in terms of shooting defenseless people, and arresting innocent people) police forces in the country. I believe they're also the highest paid bunch in Texas.

 

That being said, if I were to vote I'd only give most of the blame to the officer. I've seen arrogant, power-trippy, neanderthal cops in action (and no, that isn't meant as a swipe at anyone here, so please don't take it that way.) This guy doesn't strike me as one of those. I think he was mostly afraid, insecure, and flighty. Looks like more of a bad training problem than an incorrigible 'respect my authoritah or I'll taser your ass' cop problem.

 

If I provoked an officer the way this guy did, I would expect to be arrested. That doesn't mean it's 'right' to arrest someone for behaving that way or that someone 'should' be arrested for behaving that way, but thousands of people a day 'do' get arrested for behaving that way.

 

If I started to walk away from an officer with his taser drawn on me who ordered me to turn around and put my hands behind my back, I would expect to get tasered.

 

All that being said, from the order to the taser was less than 5 seconds. Into an unarmed man, with a wife and kid in the car, whose plates you've already run (so you know with about 99.999% certainty that this isn't some serial killer on the run.) Add to that that the guy should have never been asked to step out of the car in the first place and that the officer's communication skills suck. The officer's behavior was wrong.

 

(Btw, I also thought it was interesting how the cop was already twisting the truth (to put it mildly) in the story he presented to his buddy at the very end of the video.)

[Gerben42]

Quite a difference from any police officers I've come across. I've usually found them calm and helpful. But they've never had reason to fine me or anything (other than breaking traffic rules while riding a bike, perhaps :rolleyes:). Seeing such a video is quite shocking then.

 

In Europe, the American police is known as trigger happy, and the immigration service is feared for cross-examining innocent people and keeping them at the airport for no apparent reason. All in all, not very positive.

 

These are reasons why people choose not to travel to the US! Publicity like this doesn't help.

[1eyedjack]

I've really got to get me one of those toys.

[blackshoe]

Give us your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...

 

So we can send them to Gitmo.

 

The United States have become something never envisioned by our founders. They would be appalled.

 

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

"Mr. President, that would be unConstitutional!"

"Find me a way around that!"

 

That one was, in my memory, attributed to Bill Clinton, but could probably be attributed to many, if not most, if not all, Presidents, at least since the early 20th Century.

[Al_U_Card]

When a police officer tells you to do something, you must ask if you are under arrest. When he says yes, then you must ask what the charge is. When told, you may ask what your rights are (the officer should Mirandize you when he states you are under arrest and what the charge is.) Once that is done, comply fully. If that is not done, continue to request that information. He will lose interest quickly.

 

The officer deserves both reprimand and the requirement to apologize to the driver. The driver deserves compensation.

[sceptic]

Sixty-one people died in 2005 after being shocked by law enforcement agency TASERs, a 27 percent increase from 2004's tally of 48 deaths, finds an Amnesty International study released today. Including 10 TASER-related deaths through mid-February of this year, at least 152 people have died in the United States since June 2001 after being shocked with the weapons.

 

 

I wonder how many have been killed by speeding drivers?

[sceptic]

The driver deserves compensation.

 

 

Well sorry Al, but it is attitudes like that, that make this world a poorer place and lawyers richer

[mikeh]

We in Canada are publicly wrestling with Taser use by police officers, and as a lawyer involved in a couple of lawsuits in which Taser use or non-use is an issue, I have to be limited in what I write.

 

More importantly, my opinion is that we need to judge the actions of police officers in the US somewhat differently than those in most other industrialized nations.

 

Private gun ownership, especially of handguns, is a fact of life in the US, to a degree likely unimaginable to most Europeans. We in Canada are perhaps more aware of it because we get to share US media and we see the effects both at our border and in our cities. Vancouver is in the midst of gang warfare, with multiple hand-gun related homicides over the past several months. Toronto has been experiencing similar problems for over a year, and they are endemic in other centres: the police agencies attribute this to the prevalence of guns smuggled in from the US: it is virtually impossible for a citizen to lawfully acquire a handgun here, let alone carry it around, or have it in one's car.

 

But many Americans are proud of their right to own multiple handguns.. and routinely carry them, concealed, on their person or in their car. They think it makes them safer... despite the statistics that demonstrate that US citizens living in the US are far more likely to be killed by handguns than the citizens of any other western nation.

 

So, look at the mindset that any highway patrol or traffic cop has to have. Literally each and every driver they pull over may be more heavily armed than is the police officer! These guys take their lives in their hands with every traffic stop. And every US driver knows this.

 

In a perfect world, all cops would be more restrained. But in a perfect world, no cops would be shot by pissed-off drivers at traffic stops, using a legally obtained, and carried handgun (or semi-automatic assault rifle).

 

While we may wish for less police violence, and I am not saying that police officers, as a whole, are on any higher moral ground than any other profession or lawful occupation, we should perhaps temper our moral indignation by imagining what life is like for someone in his position. Sometimes what appear to be vicious overreactions are motivated by a legitimate fear.

 

As a disclaimer: many years ago I did some criminal defence, including acting for several individuals roughed up by certain police officers, and more recently I represent police officers in litigation matters. My experience is that there are a few bad apples, as there are in any body of people, but that the vast majority of police officers are fundamentally decent people doing a tough job.. and I see no reason not to suppose that the same holds true in the US, where I suspect that the job is even more onerous and certainly more dangerous.

 

If you want polite, restrained police officers... take the guns away from the citizenry! Of course, the wingnuts don't like that idea... my god, if we allow that, the communists will take over!!! Oh, I forgot, they don't exist as bogeymen any more.

 

But let ordinary (which includes tired, frustrated, angry emotionally upset people) carry loaded handguns, and stop kidding yourselves that this doesn't impact on the attitude of those required to interact with them, in a manner that is bound to annoy anyone... have YOU ever been happy to be ticketed?

 

 

EDIT: the preceding was a general post re what I saw in some earlier posts about an attitude towards police in general: having seen the video, I am less inclined to give this officer the full benefit of the doubt: I am puzzled as to why the decision to arrest was made... the only inciting event appears to be a refusal to sign the citation... I may well be mistaken, but I wouldn't have thought that the refusal to sign was an arrestable offence

[Al_U_Card]

The driver deserves compensation.

 

 

Well sorry Al, but it is attitudes like that, that make this world a poorer place and lawyers richer

Both valid points. AS far as traffic deaths, way more than terror-related deaths, but that didn't stop the boys at Fatherland Security from stripping the guts out of the constitution, did it.

 

As far as legal action. After watching the video, this cop was a menace and lacking in judgement as to how to deal with a young man with a wife and child. Remain calm, explain the alternatives (as any good civil servant should) and then politely request compliance. No need for the out-of-control Ramboistic approach.

[skjaeran]

Private gun ownership, especially of handguns, is a fact of life in the US, to a degree likely unimaginable to most Europeans.

That's true for most European countries, but not for Norway. The % of households owning gun(s) in Norway is much higher than all other western countries, except for USA. Still our rate of murders (with or without the use of a gun) is very low. Of course, except for some criminals, Norwegian gun owners keep their guns locked down and unloaded when not in use (for hunting, shooting competitions/practice etc).

 

It's not the number of weapons that is the problem I believe. More how weapons are conceived by the public.

 

Norwegian police is btw, generally not armed.

[mikeh]

Private gun ownership, especially of handguns, is a fact of life in the US, to a degree likely unimaginable to most Europeans.

That's true for most European countries, but not for Norway. The % of households owning gun(s) in Norway is much higher than all other western countries, except for USA. Still our rate of murders (with or without the use of a gun) is very low. Of course, except for some criminals, Norwegian gun owners keep their guns locked down and unloaded when not in use (for hunting, shooting competitions/practice etc).

 

It's not the number of weapons that is the problem I believe. More how weapons are conceived by the public.

 

Norwegian police is btw, generally not armed.

How many of the guns, in Norway, are handguns, Harald? In Canada, especially in the rural areas, there are a lot of 'guns', but most of them are shotguns or rifles, used for hunting. There are gun clubs, but even there much of the shooting is with shotguns. Handguns are much more of a threat since it is tough to both conceal a shotgun/rifle and have quick access to it in a confrontation in a public place.

[skjaeran]

Private gun ownership, especially of handguns, is a fact of life in the US, to a degree likely unimaginable to most Europeans.

That's true for most European countries, but not for Norway. The % of households owning gun(s) in Norway is much higher than all other western countries, except for USA. Still our rate of murders (with or without the use of a gun) is very low. Of course, except for some criminals, Norwegian gun owners keep their guns locked down and unloaded when not in use (for hunting, shooting competitions/practice etc).

 

It's not the number of weapons that is the problem I believe. More how weapons are conceived by the public.

 

Norwegian police is btw, generally not armed.

How many of the guns, in Norway, are handguns, Harald? In Canada, especially in the rural areas, there are a lot of 'guns', but most of them are shotguns or rifles, used for hunting. There are gun clubs, but even there much of the shooting is with shotguns. Handguns are much more of a threat since it is tough to both conceal a shotgun/rifle and have quick access to it in a confrontation in a public place.

I haven't got numbers for that, but I expect the ratio of handguns to be far lower here than in the US. You're right about handguns being much more of a threat. But you won't find handguns lying around in Norwegian homes - they're locked down. The number of unregistered handguns in criminal hands are increasing though. And those are more liable to be kept at the ready.

[jdeegan]

:) It's hard to believe there is anyone out there so stupid as the driver. He must have slept through his drivers ed classes. The ritual for getting a traffic ticket is something everyone should know. The officer was well trained. I would have tazered the jerk until he shut up.

[blackshoe]

But in a perfect world, no cops would be shot by pissed-off drivers at traffic stops, using a legally obtained, and carried handgun (or semi-automatic assault rifle).

That may be true. If, however, that is the sole criterion for a perfect world, I submit that we live in one.

 

Let me put it more bluntly: it never happened. If you have evidence otherwise, post it.

[rona_]

B) It's hard to believe there is anyone out there so stupid as the driver.  He must have slept through his drivers ed classes.  The ritual for getting a traffic ticket is something everyone should know.  The officer was well trained.  I would have tazered the jerk until he shut up.

 

Hopefully you aren't a cop. The one I see in the video needs psychiatric help IMO. These are the people who are supposed to maintain law and order in the US. Scary thought.

[bid_em_up]

I've really got to get me one of those toys.

http://www.taser.com/PRODUCTS/CONSUMERS/Pages/C2.aspx

 

http://www.taser.com/products/consumers/Pages/TASERX26C.aspx

 

Enjoy. :)

 

Actually, this is scarier to me than any police officer having a taser for use, but thats an issue for a different thread.

[1eyedjack]

Actually, this is scarier to me than any police officer having a taser for use

But it comes with a training certificate! :)

[gwnn]

I've really got to get me one of those toys.

http://www.taser.com/PRODUCTS/CONSUMERS/Pages/C2.aspx

 

http://www.taser.com/products/consumers/Pages/TASERX26C.aspx

 

Enjoy. :(

 

Actually, this is scarier to me than any police officer having a taser for use, but thats an issue for a different thread.

"I will control my destiny"

 

That's probably a much much more malicious lie than "buy our detergent, it's intelligent". It makes me sick! ****!

[jtfanclub]

you don't have to sign, but signing doesn't indicate guilt...

 

Having been arrested for resisting arrest for not signing a ticket (and spending overnight in jail), you gotta sign.

 

If the officer was placing the guy under arrest, and if the guy then put his hand in his pocket, he should have been tasered. People should know better than that.

 

And I have no love for cops, believe me.

[cherdano]

I agree very much with Josh, I can't believe anyone could think this kind of aggression by an officer would be adequate.

 

I agree with Mike that this kind of incident is one of the many hidden costs of widespread gun ownership that the gun lobby refuses to realize.

[jtfanclub]

I agree very much with Josh, I can't believe anyone could think this kind of aggression by an officer would be adequate.

I can't imagine that people think that if you flee a cop the cop just has to stand there repeating "please put your hands behind your back".

 

The guy was disobeying orders, walking back to his car, and reaching into his pocket, maybe for keys, maybe for something else. What do you think an appropriate level of aggression would have been?

[cherdano]

I agree very much with Josh, I can't believe anyone could think this kind of aggression by an officer would be adequate.

I can't imagine that people think that if you flee a cop the cop just has to stand there repeating "please put your hands behind your back".

 

The guy was disobeying orders, walking back to his car, and reaching into his pocket, maybe for keys, maybe for something else. What do you think an appropriate level of aggression would have been?

It seems to me that the rest of the Western democratic world has a different view of the job of a police officer than most people in the USA. I don't mean this sarcastically at all, I will try to elaborate later.