another asign blame

[jocdelevat]

[hv=d=s&v=e&w=sakthkj9642da95ca&e=sq98653hat5dk2c97]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     Pass

 1♥    2♣    2♥    3♣

 4♥    Pass  Pass  5♣

 5♥    Pass  Pass  Pass

 

[inquiry]

The auction could go differently in a couple of places.

 

On is over 5♣, WEST could make a forcing pass (at these colors pass has to be forcing) and then cue-bid 5♦ should EAST double. East could cue-bid 5♦ instead of doubling the forcing pass as well.

 

But this ignores the huge problem. 4♥ could and should have ended the auction with no forcing pass trick to suggest slam ambition. So something went terribly wrong BEFORE the opponents bid 5♣. What that was, it turns out, was the leap to 4♥. East has described his hand and limited it with 2♥, making WEST the captain. 4♥ ended the exploration. West could do a lot of things over 3♣, 4♣ for instance, or 3♦. If WEST shows slam interest, EAST has a fairly good hand for his 2♥ raise (actually on this auction for me, a very nice hand).

 

So I lay 100% of the blame on WEST, zero on EAST. Hope you where EAST this time, but WEST had two chances to show his real extras, 4♥ just doesn't get the job done.

[jdonn]

So I lay 100% of the blame on WEST, zero on EAST. Hope you where EAST this time, but WEST had two chances to show his real extras, 4♥ just doesn't get the job done.

WOW, I was thinking of going 100-0 the other way. Doesn't east have a clear limit raise? I don't even need to ask the question, yes he does. I can't go 100-0 since I agree that 4♥ was hasty, but I would go 1/3 west 2/3 east. West just rushed and usually it wouldn't matter. East made a clear underbid.

[han]

This is not a limit raise for me.

[mike777]

assuming random super expert pick up partner

1) hate 2h....

2) hate 4h

[awm]

I'll go with 50-50.

 

East should have made a limit raise. Give west a small club instead of the ace and slam is still quite good...

 

West should have tried over 3♣. Give east a small club instead of one of the spades and slam is still quite good...

 

They both underbid!

[Guest Jlall]

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

no

[dicklont]

West should have bid 4♣ instead of 4♥. It's free!

East could have bid 3♣ (fit, limit or better) to show quite a decent hand, that would be an option because he has no wastage in clubs. If East knows West is a conservative bidder he should have done that.

 

West 80% East 20%.

[whereagles]

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

no

You're right, he's got a GAME FORCING raise. (i.e. 7 losers)

 

But ok, maybe to count as 7 losers is optimistic. Still, definitely worth more than a mere 2H raise.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 2H is fairly conservative, and if you

feel, that this hand is inv., that would

be ok, but 2H is ok as well

=> holding this hand, you would like to

have additional raises available beside

the single / preemptive raise and the inv.+

raise

 

#2 4H is heavy, but certainly the paractical bid,

it is not even certain, that 4H makes, given

that 2H could be a whole lot lighter

 

#3 As it is I would double instead of bidding 5H,

because I would not be sure as opener, that

4H makes, but I am pretty sure 5C goes down

 

Who to blame, nobody, partly the methods, but it is no

crime to play simple methods.

Better to play simple methods than sientific ..., you dont

understand.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

West should have bid 4♣ instead of 4♥. It's free!

East could have bid 3♣ (fit, limit or better) to show quite a decent hand, that would be an option because he has no wastage in clubs. If East knows West is a conservative bidder he should have done that.

 

West 80% East 20%.

Sure 4C is free.

 

But do you really believe, that the opponents

dont listen to the bidding?

The only reason I would bid 4C is to create a

forcing pass auction to help me to decide, what to

do, if I they bid 5C.

This of course assumes, that the partnership knows

the Forcing Pass concept.

If they dont know it, 4C is a waste of time, having

no additional benefit, just the downside, that opener

may reveal some shape informtion.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Finch]

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

Yes.

[brianshark]

East has a tough bid. He has nice heart support, the spades are of uncertain value. They could be valuable (as above) or totally useless. The small doubleton club holding is a definite negative. Kx in diamonds middling. But it's a 7.5 loser hand. I think I'd lean towards treating it as a limit raise mainly because opps aren't bidding spades making it more liekly partner has some fitting values there. But it's not clearcut at all and I won't put too much blame on anyone who just bids 2♥.

 

So 25% east for the constructive raise and 75% west for the 4♥ signoff.

[kenrexford]

P-1♥-2♣-3♣

5♣-6♥-all pass

 

I think this auction would be repeated.

[gwnn]

assuming random super expert pick up partner

1) hate 2h....

2) hate 4h

amen.

[MomoTheDog]

A constructive limit raise to 3c from east is absolutely essential.

[vuroth]

I can't bring myself to limit raise with east's hand. It's a near max 2♥, but that's my bid, too.

 

I think 4♣ is a clearer bid than 4♥. There is some slam potential in west's hand, and 4♥ just slams the door on slam.

 

Fwiw, I find forcing passes rather confusing. Still, I hope I would have found some positive action over 4♣ - 5♣, while 4♥ - 5♣ I think it's more difficult to do.

 

Still, the opponents could have made the whole auction easier on us. For B/I (since this isn't the expert pickup forum!), I think my first instinct would be to congratulate opponents rather than berate partner.

 

All imho of course.

 

V

[jocdelevat]

Oh well I wonder why I still play a game that I do not understand.

Thank you all for your response.

 

p.s are there any good books on how to evaluate your hand?

[mikeh]

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

No

 

And the fact that Justin, Hannie and I (just to name only those who said no) say no means that it is not, viewed objectively, a 'clear limit raise'.

 

That is NOT the same as saying that for jdonn or Frances (and others) it is not a clear limit raise: just a recognition that it is unsafe and unfair to base a criticism of East's bidding on the basis that it is 'clear'.

 

To me, it is a maximum single raise... a super-max, if you want. But the line has to be drawn somewhere, and I know where, in my world, the line exists on this hand. That some superb players draw the line elsewhere doesn't make their placement of the line 'clear' other than to themselves.

 

Now, if we accept, for the sake of argument, that some good players will bid 2♥ as East, then West should 'clearly' cater to this with his monster... and, of course, he doesn't need everything that east has in order for slam to be a good spot.

 

Change the trump A to the Queen and I suspect that josh and Frances would join the host of single raisers, and I'd like to be in 6♥.. altho, admittedly, that contract is far less secure than with the actual hands due to the possibility of a spade ruff.

 

I blame West 90% and East only 10% simply because he could, not should, have saved West from his pessimism.

[jdonn]

It's obviously not as clear as I thought, based on the voting, in fact it seems right on the borderline judging by support on both sides. I'm surprised, it still seems clear to me. I think it's not totally fair to west the harshness of the criticism he is receiving. The reason slam keeps being so good is partner had a six card suit on the side, that is not something you normally cater to.

 

Anyway, considering, as has been pointed out by various people, that you could remove a working honor (any of several, in fact) from either hand and still have a good slam just goes to show that neither player should really be getting such a huge percentage of the blame as most people are giving them. Something from 30 to 70 for each player depending on how you feel seems reasonable, but I think any more for either player is unreasonable.

[jtfanclub]

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

No

There are lots of hands where I would limit raise in competition where I would not limit raise outside of competition. For one thing, I've lost my ability to make a trash 1NT response, so the lower range of the 2♥ call is lower. For another thing, my partner has more information after the opponent's overcall. Lastly, it's more likely that the rest of the auction will have more interference, so it's more important for me to get this hand off my chest in one bid.

 

I guess I don't see the point in bidding 2♥ here. If the bidding goes...

 

1♥ (2♣) 2♥ (3♣)

3♥ (P)

 

Are you going to bid 4?

[mikeh]

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

No

There are lots of hands where I would limit raise in competition where I would not limit raise outside of competition. For one thing, I've lost my ability to make a trash 1NT response, so the lower range of the 2♥ call is lower. For another thing, my partner has more information after the opponent's overcall. Lastly, it's more likely that the rest of the auction will have more interference, so it's more important for me to get this hand off my chest in one bid.

 

I guess I don't see the point in bidding 2♥ here. If the bidding goes...

 

1♥ (2♣) 2♥ (3♣)

3♥ (P)

 

Are you going to bid 4?

no

 

In the B/I forum, maybe the better answer is 'yes, because I suspect partner has extra values for 3♥', but in an expert partnership, no because partner is NOT trying for game: we use double of 3♣ as a general gametry, with 3♦ as a specific game-try, genuine 2nd suit. And my partners tend to bid 3♥ on these auctions with hands on which we are happy to make 9 tricks, not on hands where we will usually make 10 opposite a heavy single raise, which is what I have, in my view.... but it is close (to an original limit, not to bidding 4 over 3).

[vang]

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

No

 

And the fact that Justin, Hannie and I (just to name only those who said no) say no means that it is not, viewed objectively, a 'clear limit raise'.

 

That is NOT the same as saying that for jdonn or Frances (and others) it is not a clear limit raise: just a recognition that it is unsafe and unfair to base a criticism of East's bidding on the basis that it is 'clear'.

 

To me, it is a maximum single raise... a super-max, if you want. But the line has to be drawn somewhere, and I know where, in my world, the line exists on this hand. That some superb players draw the line elsewhere doesn't make their placement of the line 'clear' other than to themselves.

 

Now, if we accept, for the sake of argument, that some good players will bid 2♥ as East, then West should 'clearly' cater to this with his monster... and, of course, he doesn't need everything that east has in order for slam to be a good spot.

 

Change the trump A to the Queen and I suspect that josh and Frances would join the host of single raisers, and I'd like to be in 6♥.. altho, admittedly, that contract is far less secure than with the actual hands due to the possibility of a spade ruff.

 

I blame West 90% and East only 10% simply because he could, not should, have saved West from his pessimism.

i agree with mikeh here and i'd like to ask if

 

qxxx

a10x

kx

xxxx

 

or

qxxxx

a10x

kx

xxx

 

are also an obvious limit raise?

[kfay]

95% W 5% E

 

I wouldn't make a limit raise with the E hand since it didn't occur to me when I looked at the OP but after reading the responses I don't have a problem with a limit raise... I just wouldn't think about it for long.

 

I put most of the blam with W because... man 4♥ is just awful.

[neilkaz]

I have a different opinion than some of the experts here and for me, the east hand has 11 support points. 9 HCP and two doubletons with ATx in trumps, and perhaps useful ♠. This is a limit raise for me.

 

Playing Q bid = limit raise+, I can stretch a bit here and make borderline limit raises since opener can bid 3♦ as a game try to ask me how good my limit raise is, but I don't think this hand is a stretch, although it certainly is a minimal limit raise.

 

That being said, opener still is mostly at fault here ! Opener's hand is a monster and as pointed out by others, change dummies ace of trumps to a queen and slam still makes ! Opener should use some imagination and start Q bidding below 4♥.

 

.. neilkaz ..