Best Response - SAYC BBO Style

[beatrix45]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sk94h853dqj6c10543]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♥-P-???[/hv]

 

Simple bread-and-butter bidding situation. Playing SAYC BBO style - i.e. 1NT non-forcing and 2♥ not 'constructive'. Your bid? How much, if any, does vulnerability and type of scoring affect your bid?

[P_Marlowe]

2H.

 

What else, espesially playing

with a unknown partner?

 

I have a fit, I show the fit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ArcLight]

An obvious 1NT bid so I get to play the contract! :D

 

Seriously, I would bid 2♥ to show my support. I just hope pard doesn't get too excited. Offsetting this pard will know I have at least 3 trumps. And it may shut out a minor suit overcall by LHO after 1NT.

 

Playing with pick up pards I am routinely subjected to them not supporting my trump suit.

 

"I don't like to support with fewer than 4 cards" I was told when they didn't support my 5 card suit was the most recent line.

[hrothgar]

I can live with either 1N or 2♥

 

The arguments in favor of 2♥ are fairly obvious. The reasons to suggest 1N are

 

1. The poor quality of the hearts

2. The 4333 shape

3. Slow tricks

4. A positional Spade stop

 

I would probably bid 2♥, but wouldn't be at all upset if partner chose a 1NT bid. (If we belong in Hearts, partner will probably make another bid)

[ArtK78]

There are many players who like to bid 1NT on these types of hands and then take a preference to hearts. I am not among them. I bid 2♥.

[jtfanclub]

There are many players who like to bid 1NT on these types of hands and then take a preference to hearts. I am not among them. I bid 2♥.

OBAR convinces me that 1NT is the right bid with non-forcing NT. We might get the bid if I make a 1NT call. We might get it at 2♥ if I make a 1NT call and later bid 2♥.

 

But I think a vast majority of the time that I make an immediate 2♥ call, the opponents aren't going to pass it out (and it should probably be 100%). I don't think either I or my partner has enough information to know what to do over, say, a 2♠ call by balancer.

 

The old saying is that you need to give the opponents the last guess. By not showing the fit, the opponents might get the last guess. If you show the fit, you're almost certain to end up with the last guess.

 

(Some comments provided by Devil's Advocate, LTD).

[ArtK78]

There are many players who like to bid 1NT on these types of hands and then take a preference to hearts.  I am not among them.  I bid 2♥.

OBAR convinces me that 1NT is the right bid with non-forcing NT. We might get the bid if I make a 1NT call. We might get it at 2♥ if I make a 1NT call and later bid 2♥.

 

But I think a vast majority of the time that I make an immediate 2♥ call, the opponents aren't going to pass it out (and it should probably be 100%). I don't think either I or my partner has enough information to know what to do over, say, a 2♠ call by balancer.

 

The old saying is that you need to give the opponents the last guess. By not showing the fit, the opponents might get the last guess. If you show the fit, you're almost certain to end up with the last guess.

 

(Some comments provided by Devil's Advocate, LTD).

And there are many that say raise with a raise.

 

If you bid 1NT, you may not get the chance to bid hearts later. The opponents may intervene over 1NT and you will be out of the auction. That may or may not be a good thing, but most of the time it is not a good thing to let partner know that you have support.

 

I have a one-bid hand. I intend to make one bid and get out of the auction.

[gwnn]

Partner is always very happy to hear you have a fit. He's rejoicing! He will hug you! The news of a fit is the greatest news ever! (except when he's psyching, but that's another story)

 

2♥

[Mr. Dodgy]

Pass

[Guest Jlall]

I like to bid 1N with hands that will not accept any game try (hands that a lot of people would pass 1H with probably) and raise otherwise. Obviously I could accept a game try with this hand so 2H.

[mikeh]

There are many players who like to bid 1NT on these types of hands and then take a preference to hearts.  I am not among them.  I bid 2♥.

OBAR convinces me that 1NT is the right bid with non-forcing NT. We might get the bid if I make a 1NT call. We might get it at 2♥ if I make a 1NT call and later bid 2♥.

 

But I think a vast majority of the time that I make an immediate 2♥ call, the opponents aren't going to pass it out (and it should probably be 100%). I don't think either I or my partner has enough information to know what to do over, say, a 2♠ call by balancer.

 

The old saying is that you need to give the opponents the last guess. By not showing the fit, the opponents might get the last guess. If you show the fit, you're almost certain to end up with the last guess.

 

(Some comments provided by Devil's Advocate, LTD).

I would turn your argument on its head.

 

If I bid 1N and LHO bids 2♠ (and there is no hand with which he bids 2♠ over 2♥ and not over 1N), I am well and truly screwed, and so is partner. He can't bid 3♥ on a moderate hand with 6 hearts because we have deprived him of knowledge of the fit.

 

If I bid 1N and LHO bids 3 minor, again, and for similar reasons, partner is screwed.

 

So put me down for the raise. I am, btw, not with Justin in terms of accepting a try. While I will miss some games he'll reach, I'll stay appropriately low more often... plus, at imps, if partner can make game opposite this hand and these trump, I'd much prefer that he not make a game try at all...just bid game.

 

Which, obviously, is going to be problematic for him when we deny a fit.

 

Finally: the whole point about not making the last guess: it is by denying support that we create the guesswork for our side. By bidding a straightforward, natural, accurate 2♥ we afford partner (and ourselves) less need to 'guess'.

[beatrix45]

;) Thanks everyone for your responses. The hand was played six times in a BBO indy with the following outcomes:

 

2♠ making three by EW for -140 for NS. Three times

2♥ down one by NS for -50 for NS. One time

4♥ down three by NS for -150 for NS. One time

1NT down two by NS for -100 for NS. One time.

 

It is harder for for EW to enter the auction when South responds 1NT. Winning the 'race to one notrump' is only a good idea when one is non-vul, i.e. fifty a trick(-50 vs-90 or -100 vs -120). Also, much more important at MP's than IMPs.

[Guest Jlall]

So put me down for the raise. I am, btw, not with Justin in terms of accepting a try.

Sorry I realize my post was very unclear because I worded it badly, I meant that on hands where i will not accept a game try after bidding 1N ie

 

1H p 1N p

2d p 2H p

2N p ?

 

I would bid 3H.

 

If that is the case then I would like to bid 1N since partner is going to bid 1H p 2H p 4H with those hands routinely and there wont be any hope of making it if I have xxx Qxx Jxx Qxxx.

 

Another way for me to word it is that if partner is going to bid 1H p 2H p 4H I like my 2H bid to offer some hope of making it opposite a hand he would not have jumpshifted with.

 

With this actual hand I would not accept a game try after 1H p 2H p since this hand is pretty bad obviously ;)

[brianshark]

To be honest, I'm in the 1NT camp.

 

The fact is, I'm not all that bothered about showing my fit here. I dont think we even belong in hearts (at the 2 or 3 level) unless partner has some shape, and with shape he'll bid again.

 

If I bid 1NT and the opps interfere 2♠ or 3[minor], then I'm not so sure I want partner competing to the 3 level, even with a 9 card fit. The LOTT adjustments for this balanced hand with soft values and poor trumps suggest defending rather than competing, unless partner has exceptional shape, in which case he'll be bidding again without our help.

 

If we have a game, I think it's just as likely to be in 3NT as we have no ruffing value whatsoever (again, unless partner has a bit of shape).

 

I'm pretty much going to treat this hand as a 4432 6 count with a doubleton ♥.

[han]

So put me down for the raise. I am, btw, not with Justin in terms of accepting a try.

Sorry I realize my post was very unclear because I worded it badly, I meant that on hands where i will not accept a game try after bidding 1N ie

 

1H p 1N p

2d p 2H p

2N p ?

 

I would bid 3H.

 

If that is the case then I would like to bid 1N since partner is going to bid 1H p 2H p 4H with those hands routinely and there wont be any hope of making it if I have xxx Qxx Jxx Qxxx.

 

Another way for me to word it is that if partner is going to bid 1H p 2H p 4H I like my 2H bid to offer some hope of making it opposite a hand he would not have jumpshifted with.

 

With this actual hand I would not accept a game try after 1H p 2H p since this hand is pretty bad obviously :huh:

SO am I right in that you would bid 2H with an "honest" raise but 1NT with a hand that many beginners would pass?

[neilkaz]

2♥ 60 Support with support, albeit pathetic support and 4333

 

1NT 40 This is a flat 6 count with three weak trumps and you most definately

don't want PD to make a game try and can compete to 2♥ over 2m

anyhow.

 

Pass 0 Passing with 6 protected HCP is too cautious to be winning bridge in

the long run, IMHO

 

 

.. neilkaz ..

[cherdano]

If I bid 1N and LHO bids 2♠ (and there is no hand with which he bids 2♠ over 2♥ and not over 1N),

One can argue what is right, but I think your statement is very wrong for a lot of players. There are many hands with which they would "prebalance" (OBAR and all that) over 1H p 2H but pass over 1H p 1N.

(And before you start your "if they bid that badly, I am going to win anyway" refrain, I will offer a bet that there are world class players who bid more aggressively over 1H p 2H than over 1H p 1N, at least when they have spades and heart shortness. :huh: )

[brianshark]

I've also heard it called BIDS (balancing in direct seat) and it's based on the principle of presumed fit. If responder raises, they have a fit, increasing the likelihood of us having a fit. If they instead respond 1NT, they are less likely to have that 8-card fit so in turn, the 2♠ bid becomes riskier.

[brianshark]

I googled but I don't know if this link works. Try it. It's from Cohen's LOTT book (chapter 4):

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=tyZFm-qc5...lc3N_M#PPA60,M1

[Guest Jlall]

One can argue what is right, but I think your statement is very wrong for a lot of players. There are many hands with which they would "prebalance" (OBAR and all that) over 1H p 2H but pass over 1H p 1N.

(And before you start your "if they bid that badly, I am going to win anyway" refrain, I will offer a bet that there are world class players who bid more aggressively over 1H p 2H than over 1H p 1N, at least when they have spades and heart shortness. ;) )

Yep I would definitely bid over 1H p 2H on hands I would pass 1N with ie KQxxx x QJxx xxx

[Guest Jlall]

SO am I right in that you would bid 2H with an "honest" raise but 1NT with a hand that many beginners would pass?

Yes (think I even wrote this in my first post).

[lilboyman]

It would be nice if we could see all four hands along with the results.

[mikeh]

If I bid 1N and LHO bids 2♠ (and there is no hand with which he bids 2♠ over 2♥ and not over 1N),

One can argue what is right, but I think your statement is very wrong for a lot of players. There are many hands with which they would "prebalance" (OBAR and all that) over 1H p 2H but pass over 1H p 1N.

(And before you start your "if they bid that badly, I am going to win anyway" refrain, I will offer a bet that there are world class players who bid more aggressively over 1H p 2H than over 1H p 1N, at least when they have spades and heart shortness. ;) )

Having re-read what I posted, and what you and Justin posted, and thought a little more (not something I do a lot of sometimes), you are right: my statement that there are no hands on which one bids 2♠ over 2♥ and not 1N was wrong <_<

[jugarul]

I do not understand why some refuse to show fit..sometimes not even when p shows a nonbalanced hand and get 3NT down for exaple...here it is so clear 2!H

[awm]

I like to support with support. :lol:

 

It's not just the 2♠ overcall that causes a problem for bidding 1NT. Consider:

 

1♥ - P - 1NT - 2♣

2♥ - 3♣ - ???

 

It could be right to bid 3♥, but partner could easily take that for a 3-card limit raise. And it might be more comfortable for partner to be making the call over 3♣ in any case. Not to mention that after 1♥-P-2♥ it's possible the opponents might never have found clubs -- while it can pay to bid aggressively over a raise, you're also pushing them one level higher.

 

Even in uncontested auctions you might run into trouble:

 

1♥ - P - 1NT - P

2NT/3NT - P - ???

 

It's not clear whether you actually want to be in game, nor is it clear if you want to play in hearts or notrump. You're potentially better placed by raising hearts right off, since partner will bid 4♥ himself if he prefers the suit game, and if partner tries notrump you can pass him there happy that you've shown your hand.