Should there be a petition against the USBF?

[jdonn]

I don't think the forums are a good place to actually start it, it should be out on the internet. The forums have (relatively speaking) a very small membership. There are thousands of ACBL members who aren't even BBO members that should have access. I think word of mouth would really get it out.

 

Fred is right that it wouldn't really have a point unless we were sure we knew the facts. But I (and probably some or many others of us) know a lot more than is being posted here that I'm just avoiding talking about. Anyway the letter sent from Falk definitely occured, so even if the USBF hasn't technically levied a punishment yet, that would only be because their "offer" for a "less harsh" punishment was not accepted.

[jonottawa]

Alright, I'm registering on ipetitions.com (who knew there was such a thing?) and I'll keep you posted.

 

Do you agree with the wording change I proposed or do you like what you'd already written? Once we post the petition, I'd rather not change the wording, even a little (duh.)

 

Nobody knows all the facts. Sometimes you have to act on imperfect information. I believe I know enough of the facts to proceed. You can't stay in the tank forever.

[jdonn]

Make whatever change you feel appropriate, I think changing "taken" near the end to "considered" is probably wise.

[mrdct]

Alright, I'm registering on ipetitions.com (who knew there was such a thing?) and I'll keep you posted.

I just gave ipetitions.com a test drive signing some women's petition to have her dog released from the pound. The worrying thing is that after you "sign" the petition it takes you to a page where you indicate how much money you want to donate to ipetitions.com (options ranging from US$2 to US$100) and if you don't tick one of the options (of which zero isn't one) it then takes you straight to your paypal acccount (which most people who have bought anything on Ebay would have) with a US$10 donation all set up for you to enter your password. Time will only tell if they are going to use my email address to spam me.

 

btw, it looks like someone has beaten you to it as there is a "We Didn't Vote for Bush" petition already up on the site that was created on 14 Nov:

 

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/WeDidNotVoteforBush/

[jonottawa]

The donation thing is cheesy, but it doesn't stop you from signing. By the time you get to the donation screen you've already signed.

 

It's not ideal, but I think it's better than hosting it here.

 

As for the email spam problem, most people have an email address they use in situations like this (for me it's my hotmail account, which is loaded with spam and I use almost exclusively when I need to provide an email address to sign up for something.) I have no idea if these people will send spam or not. Emails are not publicly displayed, however, if that's a concern.

[cherdano]

btw, it looks like someone has beaten you to it as there is a "We Didn't Vote for Bush" petition already up on the site that was created on 14 Nov:

 

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/WeDidNotVoteforBush/

That's a very good example for a horrible and counter-productive petition.

[jonottawa]

Alright, it's up and running. Let me know if anyone has any problems.

 

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/USBFVen...Team/index.html

 

I regret the inconvenient screen begging for money, but just click on back or close the window because by the time you get to that screen you've already signed the petition.

 

Any English majors here? Is 'ceases' right or is 'cease' right.

 

Cease sounds better, but ceases seems like it's right.

 

"We, the undersigned, are writing this petition to respectably request that the USBF ceases its attempts to punish members of the USA1 Venice Cup team."

[han]

OK, signed it.

[jonottawa]

Thanks Han, it was getting pretty lonely there. :)

[Guest Jlall]

I don't know where Justin is on this, maybe he could revive his blog for a day for this.

I have been silent since about the first few pages of the other thread because I am friends with some of the women on the team, and I don't think what they did was appropriate at that time (as I indicated at the time). My view is that they should get the equivalent to a slap on the wrist (or no sanction at all) since the punishment should fit the crime, and this thing has really been blown way out of proportion. I never thought that there should be serious blood drawn such as being banned from international competition.

 

All that being said, I would not be willing to sign a petition at this time. So far, as far as I know, nothing has happened. No punishment has been handed out. I have faith that the punishment will end up fitting the crime, and I think any kind of petition is at the very least premature. I also believe that we do not know all the facts and that the people who will hand out punishment, if any, know more about the facts than us. I have no reason to think that their informed judgement will be worse than my uninformed judgement. I know that people are reading these threads and have a good idea of where everyone on this forum stands. I don't think anything else is necessary at this time.

 

Not that I think you care but I really disagree with the way you handle yourself on these forums and I think that you should remember that people here are human beings, and that you are not being assertive, you are being aggressive and just plain rude. I would not mention this except that I know you (in the sense that I have met you, not that I "know" you), and although a bit on the rude side sometimes I think you are actually a good guy and misrepresenting yourself by the way you act on these forums, a bit like jdonn used to. Of course I don't know you very well, and maybe you aren't, and likely you don't care about what I'm saying. But I digress.

[Walddk]

Any English majors here?  Is 'ceases' right or is 'cease' right.

 

Cease sounds better, but ceases seems like it's right. 

 

"We, the undersigned, are writing this petition to respectably request that the USBF ceases its attempts to punish members of the USA1 Venice Cup team."

I am no English major but I have a university degree in English. It depends on how the speaker is thinking of the USBF; as a single entity (singular) or as a group of members (plural).

 

Singular is probably more usual than plural, but this may be one of those British- English vs American-English dichotomies. So as I see it, you can use both as far as the USBF is/are concerned. The same applies to for instance companies and countries.

 

USA lead/leads, Microsoft has/have. Take your pick.

 

Roland

[jonottawa]

Any English majors here?  Is 'ceases' right or is 'cease' right.

 

Cease sounds better, but ceases seems like it's right. 

 

"We, the undersigned, are writing this petition to respectably request that the USBF ceases its attempts to punish members of the USA1 Venice Cup team."

I am no English major but I have a university degree in English. It depends on how the speaker is thinking of the USBF; as a single entity (singular) or as a group of members (plural).

 

Singular is probably more usual than plural, but this may be one of those British- English vs American-English dichotomies. So as I see it, you can use both as far as the USBF is/are concerned. The same applies to for instance companies and countries.

 

USA lead/leads, Microsoft has/have. Take your pick.

 

Roland

Thanks.

[jonottawa]

I don't know where Justin is on this, maybe he could revive his blog for a day for this.

I have been silent since about the first few pages of the other thread because I am friends with some of the women on the team, and I don't think what they did was appropriate at that time (as I indicated at the time). My view is that they should get the equivalent to a slap on the wrist (or no sanction at all) since the punishment should fit the crime, and this thing has really been blown way out of proportion. I never thought that there should be serious blood drawn such as being banned from international competition.

 

All that being said, I would not be willing to sign a petition at this time. So far, as far as I know, nothing has happened. No punishment has been handed out. I have faith that the punishment will end up fitting the crime, and I think any kind of petition is at the very least premature. I also believe that we do not know all the facts and that the people who will hand out punishment, if any, know more about the facts than us. I have no reason to think that their informed judgement will be worse than my uninformed judgement. I know that people are reading these threads and have a good idea of where everyone on this forum stands. I don't think anything else is necessary at this time.

 

Not that I think you care but I really disagree with the way you handle yourself on these forums and I think that you should remember that people here are human beings, and that you are not being assertive, you are being aggressive and just plain rude. I would not mention this except that I know you (in the sense that I have met you, not that I "know" you), and although a bit on the rude side sometimes I think you are actually a good guy and misrepresenting yourself by the way you act on these forums, a bit like jdonn used to. Of course I don't know you very well, and maybe you aren't, and likely you don't care about what I'm saying. But I digress.

I hate this 'let's psychoanalyse Jon' fetish that seems to periodically seize all-too-many people around here, but okay, I'll bite this time.

 

Let's theoretically remove the vocal anti-board behavior people like me from the equation.

 

Do you truly believe that with half the voices saying 'suspension for a year (or four) sounds right' and the other half of the voices saying 'I trust the board/panel to do the right thing' that the Board would now be backtracking as they are and poised to potentially do the right thing?

 

I don't.

 

I certainly don't pretend that I personally played a significant role in the outcome of this. But without loud and vocal support for the ladies and against the tactics/publicly discussed/leaked proposed punishment of the Board/Panel, this would certainly have ended badly.

 

It still might. But I'm proud of the role I've attempted to play in heading off a disaster.

 

I'm passionate about fighting/preventing injustice. If that comes off as rude, well, unlucky.

[Guest Jlall]

My point had nothing to do with your views, just the way you express your views. You can be passionate about something and still come off in a non jerkish way. If you do not care that you sound rude thats fine too, I often don't either (see the "bridge" part of the forums lol). I do think you could be more effective in your cause if you said things in a different manner.

[jonottawa]

Since the petition we ended up with isn't anti-USBF behavior at all, I think a new thread is in order, lest people be misled by the thread title.

 

From the other thread:

 

The petition is up at:

 

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/USBFVeniceCupTeam/

 

The petition is based on a letter written by Richard E. Willey, edited by Josh Donn. I don't think it would be fair to call it an anti-USBF petition. It's mainly just a 'let's put this behind us' petition. The text is as follows:

 

We, the undersigned, are writing this petition to respectably request that the USBF ceases its attempts to punish members of the USA1 Venice Cup team. We believe that the controversy surrounding the sanctions has eclipsed the original incident. A politically charged battle that has rapidly spread into the mainstream media doesn't benefit anyone.

 

We recognize that there is enormous controversy regarding the action of the USA1 team on the podium in Shanghai. However, the USBF Board had a number of alternative responses available which were more suited to the magnitude of the situation:

 

1. Noting that the behavior of the USA1 Team violated the WBF Code of Conduct.

 

2. Expressing regret toward the behavior of the USA1 Team and recognizing that the WBF might chose to impose sanctions.

 

3. Implementing its own Code of Conduct designed to avoid repeat incidents.

 

The USBF BoD has the authority to take almost any action that it wants. However, the punishment should fit the crime, and we do not support the extremeness of the actions being considered toward the Venice Cup Team.

 

Respectfully,

[skjaeran]

I don't know where Justin is on this, maybe he could revive his blog for a day for this.

I have been silent since about the first few pages of the other thread because I am friends with some of the women on the team, and I don't think what they did was appropriate at that time (as I indicated at the time). My view is that they should get the equivalent to a slap on the wrist (or no sanction at all) since the punishment should fit the crime, and this thing has really been blown way out of proportion. I never thought that there should be serious blood drawn such as being banned from international competition.

 

All that being said, I would not be willing to sign a petition at this time. So far, as far as I know, nothing has happened. No punishment has been handed out. I have faith that the punishment will end up fitting the crime, and I think any kind of petition is at the very least premature. I also believe that we do not know all the facts and that the people who will hand out punishment, if any, know more about the facts than us. I have no reason to think that their informed judgement will be worse than my uninformed judgement. I know that people are reading these threads and have a good idea of where everyone on this forum stands. I don't think anything else is necessary at this time.

 

Not that I think you care but I really disagree with the way you handle yourself on these forums and I think that you should remember that people here are human beings, and that you are not being assertive, you are being aggressive and just plain rude. I would not mention this except that I know you (in the sense that I have met you, not that I "know" you), and although a bit on the rude side sometimes I think you are actually a good guy and misrepresenting yourself by the way you act on these forums, a bit like jdonn used to. Of course I don't know you very well, and maybe you aren't, and likely you don't care about what I'm saying. But I digress.

Well said.

[inquiry]

Please keep post on the issue of petition to the two threads ... one in support of the women, one in support of the USBF.... we don;t need multiple new ones on the same subject. I merged the threads now. Stronger action if new similar threads pop up.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

[bid_em_up]

Jon,

 

Even though its probably too late to edit the petition, I think a better choice of wording for the first paragraph would have been:

 

We, the undersigned, are writing this petition to respectably request that the USBF ceases its attempts to harshly punish members of the USA1 Venice Cup team. We believe that the controversy surrounding the sanctions has eclipsed the original incident. A politically charged battle that has rapidly spread into the mainstream media doesn't benefit anyone.

 

I signed the petition reluctantly, and notated my objection. I do think some type of sanction needs to be applied, just not to the extremes that are currently being proposed. Change the word harshly to severely or whatever wording you would choose to indicate that the sanctions being "sought" or discussed are simply too extreme.

 

You somewhat indicated that in the last paragraph:

 

The USBF BoD has the authority to take almost any action that it wants. However, the punishment should fit the crime, and we do not support the extremeness of the actions being considered toward the Venice Cup Team.

 

So I finally chose to sign it. If it was not for that paragraph, I probably would not have.

[jonottawa]

Jon,

 

Even though its probably too late to edit the petition, I think a better choice of wording for the first paragraph would have been:

 

We, the undersigned, are writing this petition to respectably request that the USBF ceases its attempts to harshly punish members of the USA1 Venice Cup team. We believe that the controversy surrounding the sanctions has eclipsed the original incident. A politically charged battle that has rapidly spread into the mainstream media doesn't benefit anyone.

 

I signed the petition reluctantly, and notated my objection. I do think some type of sanction needs to be applied, just not to the extremes that are currently being proposed. Change the word harshly to severely or whatever wording you would choose to indicate that the sanctions being "sought" or discussed are simply too extreme.

 

You somewhat indicated that in the last paragraph:

 

The USBF BoD has the authority to take almost any action that it wants. However, the punishment should fit the crime, and we do not support the extremeness of the actions being considered toward the Venice Cup Team.

 

So I finally chose to sign it. If it was not for that paragraph, I probably would not have.

Thanks Bid.

 

We're up to 50 signatures and counting. A lot of interesting comments (including yours, I'm guessing. Go Tarheels!)

[jdonn]

Jon,

 

Even though its probably too late to edit the petition, I think a better choice of wording for the first paragraph would have been:

A better choice would have been using 'respectfully' instead of 'respectably', as someone pointed out to me yesterday. Oops! Jon is it possible to change it, maybe just sending out an email to all who signed to let them know?

[jonottawa]

Jon,

 

Even though its probably too late to edit the petition, I think a better choice of wording for the first paragraph would have been:

A better choice would have been using 'respectfully' instead of 'respectably', as someone pointed out to me yesterday. Oops! Jon is it possible to change it, maybe just sending out an email to all who signed to let them know?

You know what? I almost said something about respectably/respectfully but didn't want to sound too anal. (I was going to suggest changing the first respectably to respectfully and then change the signature to Sincerely,) Oh well.

 

I think we should just leave it. One really shouldn't tinker with a petition once the signatures start, imo. If you feel super strongly about it, I will, though. But I don't think it's worth spamming people about. I could make a note in the sidebar saying what we changed and how many signatures there were at the time.

[jdonn]

I don't think you can change it without telling everyone who had signed, even a cosmetic change that doesn't alter the meaning.

[jonottawa]

I don't think you can change it without telling everyone who had signed, even a cosmetic change that doesn't alter the meaning.

I tend to agree. That's why I don't think we should change it.

 

If it took us this long to bring it up, is it really that important? I tend to think not.

 

Anyway, I'm gonna be offline until this evening. I'll check in later.

[bid_em_up]

I don't think you can change it without telling everyone who had signed, even a cosmetic change that doesn't alter the meaning.

Josh,

 

If you are backhandly attempting to point out that my "suggested" wording would change the nature of the petition, I completely agree with you, which is why I said it was probably too late to edit the petition to make any such change.

 

(And if this is not what you were attempting to do, then just ignore this post.)

 

However, given that the first paragraph of the current petition appears to indicate that all disciplinary actions by the USBF BoD needs to cease, and the last paragraph (to me) appears to state that some actions might be acceptable, just not to the degree as currently being sought, it would make more sense if the two paragraphs agreed in their statements.

 

And while, you may feel that no sanctions whatsoever should be applied (as I think you have stated elsewhere), I personally believe that the petition would find a more supporting position from other players if it had been worded in such a manner that some sanctions (including no action taken) might be acceptable, just not to the extreme nature the BoD apparently is attempting to seek.

 

Given that the objective (at least from my perspective) is to tell the BoD "you guys are going overboard here, lets make the punishment fit the crime" and hope to inject some semblance of reason into the matter, for the sake of all parties and the game of bridge itself, it would have served the purpose of the petition better to not demand that all disciplinary sanctions be ceased, but instead request that the BoD cease its attempts to "make an example" of the VCT team via the severity of sanctions levied against the players.

 

With all of that said, I agree its too late to change the wording; it was just an observation on my part, and not a request for it to actually be edited.

 

jmoo.

[jdonn]

(And if this is not what you were attempting to do, then just ignore this post.)

I wasn't.

 

My feeling is if you like what it says, sign it. If you don't, don't sign it, or start your own. If you do sign it, don't whine about it! :(