Should there be a petition against the USBF?

[jonottawa]

If you think Fred wading into a thread and kiboshing an idea ...

How disrespectful, to Fred as well as the rest of us. I expected no less when it came from you. We are quite capable of expressing our own views without getting "help" from Fred.

 

Roland

I'm sure that Fred felt very disrespected when I suggested that his opinion carries a lot of weight around here.

 

Preach on Mr. "You don’t intimidate me, I only take orders from Fred Gitelman."

[Walddk]

If you think Fred wading into a thread and kiboshing an idea ...

How disrespectful, to Fred as well as the rest of us. I expected no less when it came from you. We are quite capable of expressing our own views without getting "help" from Fred.

 

Roland

I'm sure that Fred felt very disrespected when I suggested that his opinion carries a lot of weight around here.

 

Preach on Mr. "You don’t intimidate me, I only take orders from Fred Gitelman."

Typical. You ignored the first part of your post and think you made up for it by adding the second part.

 

As to your last comment. Indeed, as far as vugraph is concerned I only take orders from Fred Gitelman. Is that so strange? By the way, I don't have to take any because Fred never ordered me to do anything.

 

"It's your call", is how Fred handles it in every situation, so he seems to be happy with the decisions I make. I have a lot of respect for Fred, and I have little respect for people who think other people are idiots if they don't have the same views as them.

 

Roland

[jonottawa]

I have a lot of respect for Fred, and I have little respect for people who think other people are idots if they don't have the same views as them.

 

Roland

No Roland, I think people are "idots" who run around being as disrespectful as possible and then accuse other people of similar behavior. Especially if they have smurfy little signature lines.

[luke warm]

I have a lot of respect for Fred, and I have little respect for people who think other people are idots if they don't have the same views as them.

 

Roland

No Roland, I think people are "idots" who run around being as disrespectful as possible and then accuse other people of similar behavior. Especially if they have smurfy little signature lines.

you mean like people who call policemen 'pigs' and certain BoD members 'idiots'?

 

"you are a pig because you wrote me a ticket for breaking a law" ... "you are an idiot because i don't like the rule you want to enforce" ... "i can't be swayed from my views because i have free speech on my side - the rest of you sheep can be bought for a post from fred"

[bid_em_up]

This is quite typical of Jon, it seems.

 

He wants free speech, but only for himself.

 

He wants people to be able to express their views freely, but only if it agrees with what he thinks.

 

He wants to insult people, but then takes offense when he is insulted in return.

 

He evidently idolizes Political Pundits, and thinks he is one himself.

 

Attack, attack, attack, insult, insult, insult, then when really challenged on their positions, they either 1) insist you are trying to put words in their mouth, or 2) they change the subject, or 3) call you names.

 

Jon evidently is a big fan of these tactics, but they rarely actually accomplish anything. Pundits are incapable of actually discussing anything rationally with those who disagree with them. They are only capable of spewing vile rhetoric.

 

Maybe one day, Jon will realize this isn't his blog he is writing on, nor is it MSNBC or Fox News and he will choose to actually discuss things instead of attempting to be the Stephen Colbert of BBO.

 

You watch way too much TV, Jon. You said so yourself,

While you were busy competing for Junior championships, I was busy watching Sunday talk shows, dreaming of the day I could move to the US

Try reading a book instead, might I suggest something by Dale Carnegie other than "How To Lose Friends and Piss Off Your Enemies", which seems to be the only one you have ever read.

[pclayton]

From 1997 to 2000 , I was appointed as a Planning Commissioner in the City of West Covina, CA. In addition, I've attended well over 100 City Council and Board of Supervisors meetings during my career in real estate.

 

During the first portion of most meetings, the public is invited to speak on matters not on the agenda. Every community has one or two of these types of individuals which also known as gadflies who always speak at this time.

 

They are generally old men or women with disgustingly bad health and hygiene, and are frequently paranoid schizophrenics. They are egotistical as well, and are of the opinion that they know more about a subject than the agency staff members, much less the elected officials who are listening to the drivel.

 

Because of their approach, they are largely ignored.

 

When I chaired the PC, there was one particular individual that always came and spoke about environmental issues. He was an engineer by trade and a widower but he had some mental problems and no one took him really seriously. He made some very good points, but they were lost among his non-objective approach.

 

He had ZERO impact on public policy, and never understood how change really happens, such as consensus building and effective lobbying.

[jdonn]

Not a lot of voting in the past three hours, but it still appears that of the USA members that have checked in that the idea of a petition is not supported by a ratio of 3:1.

 

In an election a 75 / 25 split is considered a landslide.

But this is not an election. Can you imagine the impact if even 1% of acbl members signed a petition that went to the USBF, much less 25%?

[pclayton]

Jon, sometimes I wonder if you can think clearly for more than a period of 30 seconds. Not a good attribute for a bridge player, mind you.

 

If you think Fred wading into a thread and kiboshing an idea isn't going to skew poll results here, you must think the Florida election results in 2000 and Ohio election results in 2004 were legitimate.

 

Apparently the reason this poll is losing is because Fred and the CIA are sending radio signals to our brains influencing our opinions.

 

There's already a (pretty evenly-divided) poll up about which side is to blame so I don't see how this poll sends a message of support to anyone.

 

Hallelujah, at last an impartial poll where Fred isn't influencing the outcome! Clear example of democracy in action.

[pclayton]

Not a lot of voting in the past three hours, but it still appears that of the USA members that have checked in that the idea of a petition is not supported by a ratio of 3:1.

 

In an election a 75 / 25 split is considered a landslide.

But this is not an election. Can you imagine the impact if even 1% of acbl members signed a petition that went to the USBF, much less 25%?

On the contrary. A poll (which mirrors an election) shows who supports and who doesn't support.

 

A petition just shows who supports.

[uday]

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=22345

[jonottawa]

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=22345

Et tu Uday? :)

 

So anyway, where were we?

 

Ah, yes. The petition. I think borrowing some language from hrothgar's letter would be very helpful.

 

We could also attach endorsements from prominent members of the game:

 

'Great idea. ... Good luck getting people to sign your petition. Good luck with your petition effecting change.' - Fred Gitelman

 

What do you think? :D

[fred]

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=22345

Et tu Uday? :)

 

So anyway, where were we?

 

Ah, yes. The petition. I think borrowing some language from hrothgar's letter would be very helpful.

 

We could also attach endorsements from prominent members of the game:

 

'Great idea. ... Good luck getting people to sign your petition. Good luck with your petition effecting change.' - Fred Gitelman

 

What do you think? :rolleyes:

Suppose a petition based on Hrothgar's letter were to be made available.

 

My guess is that, of the population of people who read that petition and were in principle willing to sign *some* petition to the USBF on this matter, somewhere around 40% of these would be willing to sign the Hrothgar-letter-based petition.

 

So you might be able to get a reasonable number of signatures.

 

Would it make any difference? My guess is possibly, but very very unlikely.

 

I thought Hrothgar's letter was quite good in several respects, but I would not personally sign a petition that was based on his letter without some very serious editing. I doubt Hrothgar himself would be willing to sign the petition after I was done with my edits.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

I think the letter is a good starting point for a petition (as a letter from one person it was very good). Pretty much I would just shorten it, in particular removing most of the parts about how I (well he) feel(s) and trying to stick to what we are asking to occur and why. I would also remove most/all mention of the media and blogs. Let me try this, which is merely his letter with many parts removed and some other slight changes.

 

 

We, the undersigned, are writing this petition to respectably request that the USBF ceases its attempts to punish members of the Venice Cup team. We believe that the controversy surrounding the sanctions has eclipsed the original incident. A politically charged battle that has rapidly spread into the mainstream media doesn't benefit anyone.

 

We recognize that there is enormous controversy regarding the action of the USA1 team on the podium in Shanghai. However, the USBF Board had a number of alternative responses available which were more suited to the magnitude of the situation:

 

1. Noting that the behavior of the USA1 Team violated the WBF Code of Conduct.

2. Expressing regret toward the behavior of the USA1 Team and recognizing that the WBF might chose to impose sanctions.

3. Implementing its own Code of Conduct designed to avoid repeat incidents.

 

The USBF BoD has the authority to take almost any action that it wants. However, the punishment should fit the crime, and we do not support the extremeness of the actions being taken toward the Venice Cup Team.

 

Respectfully,

 

the undersigned

 

 

Something like that?

[jonottawa]

I think the letter is a good starting point for a petition (as a letter from one person it was very good). Pretty much I would just shorten it, in particular removing most of the parts about how I (well he) feel(s) and trying to stick to what we are asking to occur and why. I would also remove most/all mention of the media and blogs. Let me try this, which is merely his letter with many parts removed and some other slight changes.

 

 

We, the undersigned, are writing this petition to respectably request that the USBF ceases its attempts to punish members of the Venice Cup team. We believe that the controversy surrounding the sanctions has eclipsed the original incident. A politically charged battle that has rapidly spread into the mainstream media doesn't benefit anyone.

 

We recognize that there is enormous controversy regarding the action of the USA1 team on the podium in Shanghai. However, the USBF Board had a number of alternative responses available which were more suited to the magnitude of the situation:

 

1. Noting that the behavior of the USA1 Team violated the WBF Code of Conduct.

2. Expressing regret toward the behavior of the USA1 Team and recognizing that the WBF might chose to impose sanctions.

3. Implementing its own Code of Conduct designed to avoid repeat incidents.

 

The USBF BoD has the authority to take almost any action that it wants. However, the punishment should fit the crime, and we do not support the extremeness of the actions being taken toward the Venice Cup Team.

 

Respectfully,

 

the undersigned

 

 

Something like that?

I'm down with that ... Fred? (Maybe change 'actions being taken' to 'actions being publicly suggested' or 'publicly considered' or something like that.)

 

Should it be open to everyone or just ACBL members?

 

An online petition open to everyone is gonna attract Mickey Mouse, Scooby Doo, etc.

[jdonn]

Maybe just a little button to the side someone could click that says if they are an ACBL member. I don't think it has to be very scientific, it is just a way to express opinions and try to influence a change.

 

On second thought, first column: Name. Second column: ACBL number (if applicable) Third column: Comments. Probably including ACBL member numbers is best, partly for the sake of being open, partly so non-members can't lie and screw things up.

[jonottawa]

We could post it here, but I think there would be a bunch of disruptive posts, which would lessen its effectiveness (I don't know if deliberately sabotaging a petition thread would violate Uday's edict or not, would it?)

 

Ideally each comment would just say

 

Joe Blow ACBL# Atlanta, GA

 

or whatever... and each person would post only once (if at all.)

 

I could host it on my blog (and delete disruptive comments) but that wouldn't be my preference.

 

I don't know where Justin is on this, maybe he could revive his blog for a day for this.

[jdonn]

Definitely not in a blog, just somewhere 'out there' on the internet, where it is no more confrontational than need be. I have seen those things a number of times, but I have no idea how to make it (such that people can sign, and then see the signatures of others, but not remove signatures or alter things).

[geller]

I have a different proposal:

(1) The USBF BOD and VCW each pick one person who is fully authorized to represent them.

(2) These people meet face to face without any lawyers (or other people) present.

(3) The representatives of the two sides agree not to leave the meeting room until a deal has been reached.

[jonottawa]

Ya, I guess one problem with having it here is that there are surely some people here who prefer to remain anonymous (to keep their real life identity private,) even though they would be happy to sign a petition. I can always stick something up on my blog for those people if we don't figure out a better alternative.

 

Anyway, if you want to start a petition thread Josh, be my guest. It'll probably get more signatures if you host it. Otherwise I'll wait a few hours (midnight my time, which is in 6 hours) to see if Fred is willing to sign on or what changes he would propose and then post one.

 

I don't think it should have a poll. It should just have the wording of the petition, instructions, and a polite request for no disruption.

[mike777]

I have a different proposal:

(1) The USBF BOD and VCW each pick one person who is fully authorized to represent them.

(2) These people meet face to face without any lawyers (or other people) present.

(3) The representatives of the two sides agree not to leave the meeting room until a deal has been reached.

You do know that most of the people involved are lawyers, in real life. :rolleyes: Do you really expect them to just turn off. :)

[fred]

Much better - I am sure more people would sign Josh's petition than a copy of Hrothgar's letter as (which should be expected since Josh was actually trying to write a petition as opposed to a letter). But there is still a big problem for me (which I have said over and over again):

 

None of us knows enough about the facts to pass judgment on the post-Shanghai actions of either the Venice Cup Team or the USBF.

 

Of course I agree with Josh that the punishment should fit the crime, but there is more to it than that for me. For example, the Venice Cup Team scored some points with me by (from what I have heard) sending an unsolicited letter of apology shortly after they got home from Shanghai. But the lost some points with me by (from what I have heard) getting some high profile lawyer to write a threatening letter to the USBF. To me that constitutes a declaration of war after which I could understand the USBF taking whatever action they thought was necessary to defend themselves. But maybe the war declaration was taken in response to some other equally provocative action that the USBF took first which has not made it to the rumor mill yet.

 

Meanwhile the USBF scored some points with me for (from what I heard) the way they handled the early part of what happened, but they lost some points with me for (from what I heard) the calls-for-blood that some of their officials are supposedly seeking regardless of the level of remorse shown by the Venice Cup Team.

 

I have actually communicated with people on both the Venice Cup Team and the USBF Boards (neither side is particularly fond of me these days). I have heard both sides of the story, but I still don't claim to know enough to pass judgment concerning the seriousness of the "crime" let alone what an appropriate "punishment" (if any) there should be.

 

Finally I believe it is still the case (as Jan Martel pointed out several days ago) that no actual punishment has been made yet. I am not sure why the long list of possible punishments was made in the first place or how it was leaked to the public, but it is entirely possible that none of these things will come to pass after the official hearing in San Francisco.

 

I would just as soon not get involved in any more critiques of other draft petitions. If such a petition goes beyond the draft stage and if I agree with the wording then of course I will sign it, but whether or not people decide to circulate a petition should not depend on whether or not they expect me (or anyone else) to sign it.

 

Both the Venice Cup Team and the USBF already know me and they already know what I think. If you feel like you want to introduce yourselves to them and tell them what you think, by all means do so, but it shouldn't matter if I happen to agree with you or not.

 

If this petition will ever exist it is going to be yours (collectively) not mine.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jonottawa]

I thought Hrothgar's letter was quite good in several respects, but I would not personally sign a petition that was based on his letter without some very serious editing. I doubt Hrothgar himself would be willing to sign the petition after I was done with my edits.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Okay Fred, I thought you indicated a theoretical willingness to sign a petition here but I guess I misunderstood you.

 

Josh, if you want to go ahead and start a thread that's fine. You probably should credit Hrothgar too.

 

Otherwise I'll pull the trigger in 5 or 6 hours.

[Fluffy]

Again it would help if you specify exactly how the USBF is handling it. Thank you.

It makes it easier to decide to be for or against it then. :rolleyes:

After reading a lot, this is te only thing that makes sense to me on this post.

[jtfanclub]

We, the undersigned, are writing this petition to respectably request that the USBF ceases its attempts to punish members of the Venice Cup team.

I'm not even sure that's *possible*.

 

It may be that if the USBF did not discipline the Venice Cup team that the WBF would displine either the team or the USBF.

 

Or it may not be. It's tough to tell.

 

You're a member of the USBF, right, jdonn? Wanna run for the Board of Directors? I'll bet you win....

[mrdct]

Should it be open to everyone or just ACBL members?

Nothing to do with me, but surely the only people that the USBF should be listening to are their active membership. If you want to influence what they are doing, become a paid-up active paid-up member.